Discerning Truth

[BobRyan]

The people in Matt 7 used that same logic to claim that they too knew the future!

In Romans 11 there is no "but you know the future so pay no attention to this scripture" found in the text.

All those who argue that "failure to know what you will choose ten years from today is a sign of false doctrine" are basing their theology on mythology not scripture.

Steaver
The people in Matt 7 are of no comparision. They are not in Christ nor would have any understanding as do those who are in Christ.

They CLAIM to be true children of God - saved and in right relation with him at the time of his appearing. But as Christ points out -- simply "claiming to be accepted by God and claiming to have full confidence" about that day - means absolutely nothing.

Empty claims are pointless and claiming to know what you will do ten years from today is without substance.

RATHER as Christ points out "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but rather the one who DOES the WILL of My Father will enter".

Then Christ contrasts the one who DOES vs the one who simply SAYS but does not follow up with action. The house built upon the rock -- is the one who hears and DOES the will of the Father -- all others are building upon sand EVEN if at some time in the past they were saved and building upon the ROCK.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

They CLAIM to be true children of God - saved and in right relation with him at the time of his appearing. But as Christ points out -- simply "claiming to be accepted by God and claiming to have full confidence" about that day - means absolutely nothing.

Empty claims are pointless and claiming to know what you will do ten years from today is without substance.

RATHER as Christ points out "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but rather the one who DOES the WILL of My Father will enter".

Then Christ contrasts the one who DOES vs the one who simply SAYS but does not follow up with action. The house built upon the rock -- is the one who hears and DOES the will of the Father -- all others are building upon sand EVEN if at some time in the past they were saved and building upon the ROCK.

in Christ,

Bob

Your making it tough to disagree with you lately brother :wavey:

Although those in Matt 7 are not said to have claimed to be children of God and saved there is other scripture where this is so and Jesus told them their father was the devil. So I can see where you would think that they could be of those kinds of people who think they are following God but are revealed to be either pretenders or ignorant. However the context is concerning "false prophets" so I believe these people must be of those who are just using the name of God for their own monetary gains (like David Koresh types) and are revealed to have no relationship with God through Christ, neither present nor past, hence the word "never" knew you.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Clearly they are in error -- all can agree on that in Matt 7.

But starting at the beginning of the text and looking at several examples given in the text I find it hard to limit them to just "teachers of false doctirne" -- many other forms of error (like those who hear the words of christ but do not act on them) are included in the chapter.

I agree with you in your focus on the detail "I never knew you" that Matt 7 is not a good place for making an argument against OSAS since it is unclear that aLL of the various kinds of people in error in Matt 7 (or ANY of them) were ever actually saved.

But I think that whether you are pointing to a LEADER in the church that is in error or a pew-warming member that is "in error" in either case the Matt 7 "details" show that the person is "self deceived" they THINK they are IN and should be ACCEPTED by Christ in that future judgment.

I find the same kind of "self deception" in Rev 3 where the person says "I am rich and increased with spiritual goods and in spiritual need of nothing".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Clearly they are in error -- all can agree on that in Matt 7.

But starting at the beginning of the text and looking at several examples given in the text I find it hard to limit them to just "teachers of false doctirne" -- many other forms of error (like those who hear the words of christ but do not act on them) are included in the chapter.

Matt 7 is not a good place for making an argument against OSAS since it is unclear that aLL of the various kinds of people in error in Matt 7 (or ANY of them) were ever actually saved.

But I think that whether you are pointing to a LEADER in the church that is in error or a pew-warming member that is "in error" in either case the Matt 7 "details" show that the person is "self deceived" they THINK they are IN and should be ACCEPTED by Christ in that future judgment.

I find the same kind of "self deception" in Rev 3 where the person says "I am rich and increased with spiritual goods and in spiritual need of nothing".

in Christ,

Bob

I have to say Amen!

Thisis getting spooky :laugh:

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Actually I think we have always agreed on the Matt 7 point that this is a case of the self-deceived who do not "get heaven anyway".:thumbs:

But I agree - it is good to be on the same side of the fence now and then! :jesus:

You would "think" it would happen more often given that we both are supposed to be Arminian.:laugh:

But there are others like HP and Brother Bob and Scarlett O' that I often agree with as well as agreeing with almost everyon on this board on "some subject".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

It's nice to agree :thumbs: What a wonderful time it will be when we all come together with Christ singing praises to our King and never again disputing about anything! :godisgood:

 

[BobRyan]

True - it is always much more pleasant to see things the same way.

And as you say -- It is going to be fun to have God say "this is the way it is" and we all respond "so say we all".

But that brings up another interesting point to ponder.

Remember when God said "this is the way it is" to Adam and Eve and Satan came along saying "Did God really say you could not eat of any of the trees of the Garden?" -- just changing the statement of God by a tiny bit -- and giving Eve the "impression" that she was in the position to "correct" a lowly mistaken snake who then went on to "prove" that you don't die if you eat of the tree nor even if you touch the fruit.

Now we have to conclude that God already knew what the snake (the devil) was going to do - yet He left out some tiny details anyway. He knew they had the "impression" that one touch - one bite would cause instant death - and He knew that this was the very "gap" where Satan would expose them. Yet they could still survive the test by simply saying "I trust God anyway - I will go ask Him why this is not turning out the way I thought it would based on His YOU SHALL SURELY DIE statement".

It was really pretty simple to remain faithful if they would choose that path.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

How would Adam and Eve know what death meant? They never experienced death in their lives or in anything around them. How could they comprehend what death would be?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I am sure they had nothing to accurately judge the enormity of the problem - however they DID know when someone was "not dying".

And certainly the serpent did not "appear to be dying".

Another thing - though they were "brand new" -- they came from God on day one with --

1. A fully developed language.
2. The ability to analyze animals and name them appropriately
3. The ability to survive on their own in the garden
4. The ability to find food and follow commands.

That is all "pretty amazing for 1 day old"!! Imagine what they were able to do by the 2nd day - the second week... the second month.

Prefect beings, perfectly created by God - able live even OUTSIDE the Garden for almost 1000 years -- my guess is these guys were no dummies.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I am sure they had nothing to accurately judge the enormity of the problem - however they DID know when someone was "not dying".

And certainly the serpent did not "appear to be dying".

Another thing - though they were "brand new" -- they came from God on day one with --

1. A fully developed language.
2. The ability to analyze animals and name them appropriately
3. The ability to survive on their own in the garden
4. The ability to find food and follow commands.

That is all "pretty amazing for 1 day old"!! Imagine what they were able to do by the 2nd day - the second week... the second month.

Prefect beings, perfectly created by God - able live even OUTSIDE the Garden for almost 1000 years -- my guess is these guys were no dummies.

in Christ,

Bob

This is true, I guess I didn't give it enough thought. All knowledge comes from God so it is likely that God gave them the knowledge of what death would be else God stating the consequences to them would be a mute point.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Am I running out of places to debate Steaver???

What is this world coming too??

Just kiddng - what other topics can we agree on?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[EdSutton]

John E. Little wrote two books:
"Know What you Believe"
"Know Why you Believe"

It is imperative that we know why we believe what we believe.

It might be suggested to know your authors, rather than just cite someone who does not even exist.

The author of the two above books [which I happen to have at least one but am not sure about the other (Senior moment!), although I have seen and read from it, a bit] is PAUL E. Little!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

You mean we should do more than simply yell "heretic!" at each other and pound on the podium?

WHY? These all seem like fun! {rolleyes}

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

You mean we should do more than simply yell "heretic!" at each other and pound on the podium?

This also reminds me of something I once heard about a preacher's sermon notes.

Written in was this note -

"Weak Point! Pound Pulpit!" :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[BobRyan]

"Weak Point! Pound Pulpit!" :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

Very funny - yet the sad truth of that all-too-human trait is seen every day!:thumbsup: :type:

In Christ,

Bob