Disciples salvation?

[awaken]

It seems confusing but it isn't Jesus had to go to the Father seated in Glory to pour the Holy Spirit on the earth to all believers making us one.

Very confusing!:BangHead:


I see in the rest of the book of John ...he describes some things that the disciples did after they received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday. If they had received the Holy Spirit in order to be empowered for their ministry (according to somes view), is there any evidence that they had received power? I do not see it, all John describes them doing is going fishing, eating a meal with Jesus, and having a conversation with Him:

""I'm going out to fish," Simon Peter told them, and they said, "We'll go with you." So they went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing. Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. ... When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread. Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught." Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord." (John 21:3-12)

Throughout the rest of the book of John and the beginning of the book of Acts there is no indication that the disciples had received any supernatural power. There is no evidence to support the conclusion that spiritual empowerment was the reason why the disciples received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday.

So did they receive anything...if if so what? Jesus said receive the Holy Spirit..right?

 

[convicted1]

Could John 20 and Acts 2 be the same event, one written by John, and the other(Acts) by Luke? At first I thought so, but now, I am not so sure.

 

[psalms109:31]

It was to open their eyes to understand the scripture and be prepared for what is to come. This filling served the purpose to prepared them for what is to come Like John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus they are to prepare the way for the Holy Spirit.

 

[humblethinker]

I come to a Baptist forum for answers and get less here than on other forums...hmmmm....

Lol, I love this... Awaken, I feel like I know what you're talking about, I've felt that way many times, not necessarily about this board but just about people who I thought 'should' be 'in the know' (ie. preachers), and thus they should be 'certain'. However, it is the case that they are people too, and sometimes they voice their certainty because they are in a culture of people that demand certainty. I'm not necessarily making judgements about you since I've read little of your postings but you've voiced a sentimant that can be very stunting to a relationship with Jesus. I've probably taken more liberty than I had room to but I hope you grant me some grace and latitude with what I'm saying... Lately I've taken to heart that the correctness of my beliefs is not what gives me life or security. Peace and prayers for you in your walk with Him regardless of your lack of certainty!:wavey:

 

[awaken]

Could John 20 and Acts 2 be the same event, one written by John, and the other(Acts) by Luke? At first I thought so, but now, I am not so sure.

No, because Jesus had already left in Acts 2. He was present in John 20.

 

[awaken]

It was to open their eyes to understand the scripture and be prepared for what is to come. This filling served the purpose to prepared them for what is to come Like John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus they are to prepare the way for the Holy Spirit.

So you are saying this filling is the same as the OT, temperary for that purpose.

Interesting..never heard that. Can you share how you came to that conclusion?

 

[awaken]

Lol, I love this... Awaken, I feel like I know what you're talking about, I've felt that way many times, not necessarily about this board but just about people who I thought 'should' be 'in the know' (ie. preachers), and thus they should be 'certain'. However, it is the case that they are people too, and sometimes they voice their certainty because they are in a culture of people that demand certainty. I'm not necessarily making judgements about you since I've read little of your postings but you've voiced a sentimant that can be very stunting to a relationship with Jesus. I've probably taken more liberty than I had room to but I hope you grant me some grace and latitude with what I'm saying... Lately I've taken to heart that the correctness of my beliefs is not what gives me life or security. Peace and prayers for you in your walk with Him regardless of your lack of certainty!:wavey:

Now this was said in a spirit that I can receive...thank you! My security is in Christ and what He has done on the cross! :thumbs:

But he does tell us to study...lol..
I have received a lot of help on forums...people make me think and reexamine what I come across in scriputure.

I love His Word! So much to learn and relearn...

 

[psalms109:31]

So you are saying this filling is the same as the OT, temperary for that purpose.

Interesting..never heard that. Can you share how you came to that conclusion?

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

When Jesus is glorified all believers like at the Pentecost.
will receive the Holy Spirit. The permanent is when He is with the Father.

I believe when He seat in the Glory with the Father. that He will send the believers what He has promised. It to me would be ridiculous to wait for something the already possessed.

 

[psalms109:31]

Matthew 9:
14 Then John’s disciples came and asked him, “How is it that we and the Pharisees fast often, but your disciples do not fast?”

15 Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

 

[awaken]

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

When Jesus is glorified all believers like at the Pentecost.
will receive the Holy Spirit. The permanent is when He is with the Father.

I believe when He seat in the Glory with the Father. that He will send the believers what He has promised. It to me would be ridiculous to wait for something the already possessed.

NO, I do not believe we have to wait as they did at Pentecost..that was a one time thing.

But as I recall.... Jesus told the disciples 40 days after Resurrection Sunday and a few days before Pentecost:
"On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."" (Acts 1:4-8)

"I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." (Luke 24:49)

What I see that Jesus said.... and what He did not say. He did not say that in a few days (at Pentecost) the disciples will receive forgiveness of sins or eternal life. He did not mention forgiveness of sins or eternal life at all! (Recall that these things were mentioned on Resurrection Sunday). Instead, Jesus specifically said that the disciples will receive power and will be clothed with power in a few days (at Pentecost). Then He described the ministry of evangelism which they would soon begin, saying that they would be His witnesses to the ends of the earth.

Therefore, I see that Pentecost was the point at which the disciples received supernatural empowerment for their ministry.

At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples for their spiritual empowerment in a great demonstration of supernatural power. There was the sound of a violent wind, visible tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, and powerful evangelism which resulted in roughly 3000 people being saved that day and many more being saved or healed after that. After Pentecost, "many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles." (Acts 2:43).

This leaves no doubt that when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost it was for their spiritual empowerment.

Could salvation be OT and NT the same through Faith...but the difference in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit would come and go in the OT, but in the NT it was with all believers and did not leave them? ...Just a thought..

 

[psalms109:31]

NO, I do not believe we have to wait as they did at Pentecost..that was a one time .

I was talking about them not us.

I trusted in Christ when I was 11, but it wasn't until I was old 26 when in tears I felt the Holy Spirit in me, before then when I opened up the scripture I dIdn't understand a word of it, all I knew before then I couldn't save myself only Jesus can. I look at the rest when I get a chance got to get back to work

 

[awaken]

I was talking about them not us.

I trusted in Christ when I was 11, but it wasn't until I was old 26 when in tears I felt the Holy Spirit in me, before then when I opened up the scripture I dIdn't understand a word of it, all I knew before then I couldn't save myself only Jesus can. I look at the rest when I get a chance got to get back to work

I work out of my home too...that is why I am on an off.
Thanks for answering some of my questions...

 

[psalms109:31]

Could salvation be OT and NT the same through Faith...but the difference in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit would come and go in the OT, but in the NT it was with all believers and did not leave them? ...Just a thought..

Acts 19:
Paul in Ephesus

1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Read Hebrews 11 and tell me what you think the answer is?

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[awaken]

Acts 19:
Paul in Ephesus

1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Read Hebrews 11 and tell me what you think the answer is?

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Salvation is by faith!

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation is by faith!

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

James 2:
Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

[awaken]

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

James 2:
Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith is an action word!

I am not sure what you are getting at concerning the salvation of the disciples?

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith is an action word!

I am not sure what you are getting at concerning the salvation of the disciples?

Faith is actually a noun planted in us through the enduring word of God as a disciples salvation it is hard to focus on why we are saved because of what He has done by the work of His hand and our responsibility as a believer that our faith not be dead.

 

[Van]

Difficult passages

On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples in a great demonstration of supernatural power (Acts 2:1-4). There was the sound of a violent wind, visible tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, and powerful evangelism which resulted in roughly 3000 people being saved that day (Acts 2:41) and many more being saved or healed after that (Acts 2:43).

However, there was an earlier event...... If you recall, before Pentecost Jesus told the disciples that in a few days they would be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit:

""For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. ... you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight." (Acts 1:5, 8-9)

Notice that immediately before Jesus ascended to heaven, He told the disciples that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit in a few days. Now take a look at what Jesus said to the disciples on Resurrection Sunday (which was forty days earlier, according to Acts 1:3):

"On the evening of that first day of the week [Resurrection Sunday], when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" (John 20:19-22)

The disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day that Jesus was resurrected, which was almost a month and a half before they were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost!

Why did the disciples have two separate experiences of the Holy Spirit like that?

When a verse is vague or unclear, you can always depend on lots of "theologians" weighing in with various speculations, declaring it means this or that. One way of analyzing difficult passages is to ask the question: "What is the least God could be saying?" So rather than trying to figure out how far reaching a difficult passage may be, try figuring out what is the minimum truth being conveyed. This puts us on as sound a ground as possible.

Jesus had appeared to some of the apostles, but not to "doubting Thomas" and said I send you. But they were not actually sent, but rather told to stay, Acts 1:4. So this seems to be Jesus symbolically presenting what will happen at Pentecost. This view does not introduce any complicated discussion of partial filling and complete filling.

When were the disciples saved? When they believed? Nope. When God put them spiritually in Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness? Yes. Could this have happened before Christ became the propitiation for not only our sin but for the sin of the whole world? Nope. Therefore the disciples were saved after Christ died and they believed. At the other end of the possible period we have them being filled with the Holy Spirit, and this does not happen until after God puts a person in Christ and they undergo the circumcision of Christ.

But why were they not immediately filled. Jesus had to leave for the Holy Spirit to come. So it comes down to a few days perhaps as long as 10 days from His Ascension to Pentecost.

This slight delay I think was to time the start of the Church for the celebration where folks speaking different languages would be in the area. That way one of the "proofs" that the New Covenant had been inaugurated was manifested.

 

[awaken]

When a verse is vague or unclear, you can always depend on lots of "theologians" weighing in with various speculations, declaring it means this or that. One way of analyzing difficult passages is to ask the question: "What is the least God could be saying?" So rather than trying to figure out how far reaching a difficult passage may be, try figuring out what is the minimum truth being conveyed. This puts us on as sound a ground as possible.

Jesus had appeared to some of the apostles, but not to "doubting Thomas" and said I send you. But they were not actually sent, but rather told to stay, Acts 1:4. So this seems to be Jesus symbolically presenting what will happen at Pentecost. This view does not introduce any complicated discussion of partial filling and complete filling.

When were the disciples saved? When they believed? Nope. When God put them spiritually in Christ after crediting their faith as righteousness? Yes. Could this have happened before Christ became the propitiation for not only our sin but for the sin of the whole world? Nope. Therefore the disciples were saved after Christ died and they believed. At the other end of the possible period we have them being filled with the Holy Spirit, and this does not happen until after God puts a person in Christ and they undergo the circumcision of Christ.

But why were they not immediately filled. Jesus had to leave for the Holy Spirit to come. So it comes down to a few days perhaps as long as 10 days from His Ascension to Pentecost.

This slight delay I think was to time the start of the Church for the celebration where folks speaking different languages would be in the area. That way one of the "proofs" that the New Covenant had been inaugurated was manifested.

You said that they could not believe until after Christ died.

He had died and rose again when this happened, So they could have believed on the full..virgin birth, life, death and resurrection, right?

 

[Van]

You said that they could not believe until after Christ died.

He had died and rose again when this happened, So they could have believed on the full..virgin birth, life, death and resurrection, right?

No, I said they could not have been spiritually placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross. Salvation occurs when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation. Then we are "sealed" in Christ with the Holy Spirit. So by the numbers, 1, Christ died, 2, we believe, 3, God, who knows our heart credits our "all in" faith as righteousness, and 4, God spiritually places us in Christ and seals us with the Holy Spirit forever. We are now saved. So belief provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2, but does not save us. God does, for He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

So yes, they could have believed from their heart Jesus was the Messiah before He died on the cross. We can speculate that perhaps they did not until they saw the risen Christ, like Peter and Thomas, but to say none believed before the cross does not have specific support in scripture. However, they could not have been spiritually placed in Christ until after Christ died, becoming the propitiation for sin. So the sequence may not be fixed for some of the disciples, but it is a moot point because now the sequence is fixed, none of us believed before Christ died and ascended.

One more point, it is God who credits our faith, as flawed or grand as it may be, as righteousness. So I could hold to all sorts of fouled up doctrine, but believe in my heart Jesus died for me, paid for my sins with His blood because He loved me, and therefore I love Him. Who is to say, God could not credit that simple faith of a child of 6 or 7 and spiritually place the child in Christ. Certainly not me.