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Discussing Evidence.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
Let us not be fooled! We do not want to be one of those who will be turned away on that day when men stand before God. The way is narrow, and the road is straight, and FEW be that find it.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Verse 22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Verse 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.
Our sin has set us all on the road to hell and no amount of good will fix the sin we have done. We have ALL sinned. It is not about the type of sin or how much sin. It is about the fact that we have sinned. For that reason we all need a Savior.
If we want forgiveness for our sin and peace with God. If we want to escape eternal hell. If we want to go to heaven we must understand the following. We DO NOT get saved (go to heaven), get right with God, forgiven, by being good, by being religious, by just believing in God, by praying a prayer, being baptized, asking or accepting Jesus into our hearts, accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour, confessing our sins, joining a church, cleaning up our lives, doing penance, taking the bread and the wine, or doing all these things accumulative.
Salvation is a gift that is given to those who repent and come to faith. Eph. 2:8,9
Salvation takes repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 20:21. testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Make no mistake. We cannot be a friend of Christ and remain a rebel against God and unless we repent we remain a rebel. The word repent, from the Greek word “metanoia”, means a change of mind or direction.
God is not receiving those who almost or kind of repents. It is like the word About-face which is a 180 degree turn. We turn from not wanting God fully in our lives to willfully surrendering to Him to lead our lives.
When any person comes to the place where they are broken over their sin toward God to the point that they want to get right with God no matter what it will cost them they are in a state/spirit of repentance toward God. Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. The repentant heart would walk away from anything or any one to get right with God.
We then take that willing repentant heart we have towards God and place it on the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Master, because He paid the price for our sin, and that becomes faith. At that moment God’s grace through Christ is freely applied to us and we are born again, saved from eternal hell and sealed by the Spirit so that we will never again return to the practice of sinning. 1John 3:9,10.
Our first command after salvation is to be baptized.
Repentance of sin is the result of the new birth/salvation and will be part of the sanctification process and our new life with the Lord Jesus Christ, Eph 2:10. While we may sin from time to time after salvation it will never again be our practice 2Cor. 5:17, 1John 3:9,10.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
REV. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
It all boils down to are we sorry/broken enough over our sins against God and do we want to get our hearts right with Him or not. Let us be sure that tomorrow does not belong to us.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Verse 22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Verse 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.
Our sin has set us all on the road to hell and no amount of good will fix the sin we have done. We have ALL sinned. It is not about the type of sin or how much sin. It is about the fact that we have sinned. For that reason we all need a Savior.
If we want forgiveness for our sin and peace with God. If we want to escape eternal hell. If we want to go to heaven we must understand the following. We DO NOT get saved (go to heaven), get right with God, forgiven, by being good, by being religious, by just believing in God, by praying a prayer, being baptized, asking or accepting Jesus into our hearts, accepting Jesus as our personal Saviour, confessing our sins, joining a church, cleaning up our lives, doing penance, taking the bread and the wine, or doing all these things accumulative.
Salvation is a gift that is given to those who repent and come to faith. Eph. 2:8,9
Salvation takes repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 20:21. testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Make no mistake. We cannot be a friend of Christ and remain a rebel against God and unless we repent we remain a rebel. The word repent, from the Greek word “metanoia”, means a change of mind or direction.
God is not receiving those who almost or kind of repents. It is like the word About-face which is a 180 degree turn. We turn from not wanting God fully in our lives to willfully surrendering to Him to lead our lives.
When any person comes to the place where they are broken over their sin toward God to the point that they want to get right with God no matter what it will cost them they are in a state/spirit of repentance toward God. Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. The repentant heart would walk away from anything or any one to get right with God.
We then take that willing repentant heart we have towards God and place it on the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Master, because He paid the price for our sin, and that becomes faith. At that moment God’s grace through Christ is freely applied to us and we are born again, saved from eternal hell and sealed by the Spirit so that we will never again return to the practice of sinning. 1John 3:9,10.
Our first command after salvation is to be baptized.
Repentance of sin is the result of the new birth/salvation and will be part of the sanctification process and our new life with the Lord Jesus Christ, Eph 2:10. While we may sin from time to time after salvation it will never again be our practice 2Cor. 5:17, 1John 3:9,10.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
REV. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
It all boils down to are we sorry/broken enough over our sins against God and do we want to get our hearts right with Him or not. Let us be sure that tomorrow does not belong to us.
37818
Well-Known Member
While arguing for a repentance. Does not deal with the issue of evidence regarding the bodily resurrection in the two videos discussions.
That's actually a good point. Scripture places salvation conditional on repentance and belief in Christ. Scrioture places our hope in a bodily resurrection on the fact Jesus was raised - bodily - from the grave.
If we stick with Scripture alone, is it then possible for one to be saved (to repent and believe) yet hold the error that we will be raised spiritually because they hold the error Jesus was not raised bodily?
It is interesting to consider exactly how much error in doctrine negates the gospel message.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The mark of salvation, according to scripture, is the indwelling God Holy Spirit. God Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit we are children of God
If someone is has indwelling God Holy Spirit, an errant view doesn’t negate they are saved God Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. The fact He leads us reveals there isn’t an instant data dump of all correct doctrine.
I would be careful declaring folks to be unsaved unless they believe certain Christian doctrine.
It could be they simply haven’t been taught yet.
Remember Apollos was counted as a believer but only knew of John’s baptism.
peace to you
If someone is has indwelling God Holy Spirit, an errant view doesn’t negate they are saved God Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. The fact He leads us reveals there isn’t an instant data dump of all correct doctrine.
I would be careful declaring folks to be unsaved unless they believe certain Christian doctrine.
It could be they simply haven’t been taught yet.
Remember Apollos was counted as a believer but only knew of John’s baptism.
peace to you
37818
Well-Known Member
There exists this error misunderstanding 1 Corinthians 15:44, . . . It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
. . . Both bodies are bodies not spirit.
[Luke 24:39, . . . Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.]
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I agree. I just wonder if somebody who believes in Christ but holds this error negates their salvation.
I think in the end we may find many "heretics" are saved, and many with the "right doctrine" are lost.
When I was saved, I had very little understanding about Christ. I didn't understand bodily resurrection as I do now, I didn't understand that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.
If we say salvation is "conditional on repentance," do we not say that men save themselves? Does that not become an addition to the Work of Christ? Don't get me wrong, men must repent, truly, but consider that repentance, as well as belief is a reaction. Rather than a concerted effort on the part of men. In an attempt to explain this, consider your reaction if I throw a bucket of cold water on you on a nice hot day. You will not stop to consider your reaction, it is what it is. Your driving down the road and a squirrel runs out in front of your car. For most people, the regret occurs long before the squirrel's death. Basically, I view repentance in that light, that when God enlightens our hearts to the truth, it's not something we have to think about, it's something we know to be true. The active part is when men reject the truth. In that sense men express their wills. But repentance is, in my view, an inevitable reaction to God's ministry, rather than an active effort on our part.
I've read this three or four times and still not exactly sure what you mean.
I will say this: doctrinal error does not necessarily mean one can't be saved. If that were true—we would all be in trouble, lol.
Do I think someone can be saved and be in error concerning Christ's Resurrection? Yes. Even in our own circles, where sound doctrine is taught on a regular basis, we find people who have trouble grasping a higher understanding. All of us begin as babes, right? Most of us are ignorant when we are saved. Yet all of us were saved despite that.
No error negates the Gospel, because it is God Himself dealing individually with the unbeliever to reveal truth. This is a supernatural event outside the doctrine, discussion, and dilemmas of men. We are privileged to be used of God in this process, but ultimately we plant seeds and water at best. If our encounters with unbelievers fail, it is not the Gospel that has failed, but we ourselves.
I think that those who reject the bodily resurrection after instruction in the Word may betray an unregenerate condition, and if this is the case then they fall into that category. But there are other factors to consider, such as years of conditioning as a member of a cult. Many people express the beliefs of others, rather than their own, parroting what they have been taught, or simply adhering to what best fits their own beliefs. Within all of that, thankfully, we have a merciful God Who takes the time to instruct His children. All of us have so much more to learn, and we won't learn it all while we are here.
Okay, just my view, lol.
God bless.
I think an alternate explanation may help here.
Scripture is very clear that in order to be saved one must "repent and believe". But one is also "born of the Spirit".
The alternate explanation is that it is only by God's grace and work that we are able to "repent and believe" (therefore it is a work of God and not man).
Regardless, we cannot dismiss the conditions Scripture places on salvation and on forgiveness. I think the best explanation is that God works in us to meet those conditions.
I'd like to point out one thing: the only condition the Lord placed on regeneration is that one must be born again. And regeneration is Eternal Redemption, contrasted with redemption in the Old Testament. It is helpful to be careful not to merge economies (and I'm not saying you are doing that, just that this happens quite a bit), and by that I mean we don't impose the economy of the Law (or those preceding it) with the economy of the New Covenant. As I said, repentance is a result, rather than an effort in man. It results directly from God's efforts, His Work. Apart from the ministry of the Comforter, men are not even aware of His truth.
If you don't mind, could you post the Scripture that shows Eternal Redemption requires repentance? And I'm not saying repentance is a non-issue. Again, I view repentance as a result, rather than a means of salvation. It is the result of God actively bringing men to repentance:
Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
It is God's ministry that brings natural man to the point that he might repent. If repentance is a requirement, then it certainly cannot be attributed to men when it occurs.
God bless.
I wanted to submit these for consideration:
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
I know, pretty obvious proof-texts, lol, but they do express a basis for my view. Acts 11 expresses God's sovereignty in salvation very well. As mentioned, I see repentance as a result (rather than an effort), and apart from His intervention in the heart of the natural man there can be no repentance, so basically, as it states here, God gives repentance in the process of Eternal Redemption.
Acts 11
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
I believe every salvific event follows this model: God allows man to hear the Gospel, He allows them to understand, and repentance is the result of that understanding. Just as belief is.
Where the will of man comes into play occurs when the natural man, who has been ministered to by God, actively rejects the Gospel. This does not preclude the result of belief. Those who reject do believe, in my opinion, it is just a matter that they do not want to submit. I think the following supports this:
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
In view is the wilful rejection of the truth. That is the one inherent ability the natural man has in regards to salvation.
God bless.
I must point out that being born again (or from above) is not....biblically.....a condition of regeneration. It is a condition of "entering the kingdom of God".
And I must point out that being born again (of God, from above, of water and of the Spirit—all refer to the same event)—is regeneration.
And it is just as true for unbelievers today that no man shall see the Kingdom of God, neither the underlying Kingdom Christ was not openly revealing (meaning the Church), nor the physical Kingdom during His Millennial reign, as it is for those who enter the Millennial Kingdom.
The Kingdom Nicodemus would have been familiar with was the Kingdom promised to Israel by God, which we call the Millennial Kingdom. We today, because we have received the Mystery of the Gospel, can understand the Lord is referring to both.
Nicodemus could not.
We should not, as some do, confuse this with "the regeneration" Christ speaks of here:
Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
There will be no judgment of the Twelve Tribes in the Eternal State. This is a reference to the promised physical Kingdom. Nicodemus knew about this, but not the Eternal State.
God bless.