No need to save face.
It is you that made the admission, I am just glad you finally got it.
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Discussion of the first article of the "affirmations" and in particular Psalms 2
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
No need to save face.
It is you that made the admission, I am just glad you finally got it.
Psalm two is fulfilled,and ongoing as the gospel spreads worldwide:
The Kingdom is going on now ,The Lord Jesus Christ is ruling in the midst his enemies psalm 110....it is ongoing and nonstop.
The Kingdom is going on now ,The Lord Jesus Christ is ruling in the midst his enemies psalm 110....it is ongoing and nonstop.
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I made no admission. You can twist my words all you want. Shame on you.
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You haven't twisted my words to your own biased assumption?
Two questions:
First, do you consider that no prophecy is filled in part and waiting to be completed at some future time?
Second, does your (and the acts considering that one verse) view of fulfillment of Psalm 2 preclude that there will be no future millennial reign in which the total of Psalm 2 and 46 will be more literally performed?
Agedman.
I first was instructed in the pre-mill dispy teaching fron Dallas theological seminary, believers chapel, and baptist bible college.
They taught this idea you are suggesting saying prophecy is like mountaintops in the distance......you see the tops, but alot goes on down in the valleys in between.
Acts 13 answers your first question. I know the position you are advocating, having been taught that way. I am somewhat rusty,but could still present it somewhat accurately if I glance at one of my old scofield bibles, or larry bates tribulation charts:thumbsup:
But Acts 13 says it is fulfilled in us...as does acts 2:16 when peter quotes from Joel 2.
Agedman.....there began to be too many supposed double fulfillments that the scripture did not say were double fulfillments....like here or Acts two.
Peter said....THIS IS THAT...he did not say, this is like that , or this is part of that....he said this IS THAT.
Agedman....I do not think you intended for this thread to become an eschatology thread originally...so this interchange is more like food for thought.....
So...yes question one answered here in acts13...is that a fulfillment has taken place, different than what the jews were expecting...that is why soon after as the jews reject this, they say..okay we had to speak to you[jews ] first, but now we go to the gentiles;
He is quoting from Isa491-8..particularily verse 6 which speaks of the Servant of The Lord...and His mission;
verse 6 is quoted here, and verse 8 gets found in 2cor 6??? lets look-
See it--- he says NOW...not part now and the real fulfillment later.
That being said.....it is ongoing so it was not completely fulfilled because God has designed the gospel to go into all the world..jn 3:16 jn1 :29
That implies time...maybe a long time...maybe we are still the early church:thumbs:
In hebrews 2 it says;
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him
The light is still spreading to the gentiles worldwide, God is still harvesting the fields....ruling in the Kingdom, yet an enemy has sowed tares among the wheat.....we do not root them out until the angelic beings cast them out... casting out all who offend.
Your second question is answered by psalm 22 and psalm 72 ,along with psalm 110....
27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Just trying to show how others have seen this before the last 150 years.
I fought against this for awhile, but then we you see Zion and Jerusalem as the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem....all the prophecies fall in line;joel isa.micah...
these passages had been presented as millenial..on earth....but if you can see the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem as the fulfillment from the eartly type...then you get it:thumbs:
here from hebrews 12:22-24
He is speaking right now...FROM HEAVENgive it some thought...look at Joel 2and 3...read all of it do a concordance study on Zion and Jerusalem....then see if it can be the heavenly zion and jerusalem.
Ps...I am thinking out loud here,as i am still working through this.having learned the premill system first, it takes alot to seperate out the thoughts I had been exposed to, the re-read the verses looking for another explanation. Then when you read the postmill/amill guys ..it is alot to deal with....but worth a good look.
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Just to shorten the amount of your post, but not to let you off the hook, for I want to come back to it perhaps on another thread and do more exploration of you thinking.
But, considering (having also been schooled in pre-mill disp teaching from my youth) the psalms from that view, can you not see why I would place it as actually to be completely fulfilled at the millennium for all the kings of the earth to see and acknowledge?
I do not see every Psalm as totally applicable to the current times. I do see some Psalms as partial (as this one) in that the "fulfillment" is in part (for instance the proclamation of God about His Son occurred more than once in the gospels but few in the world heard the proclamation), or perhaps better stated as taste testing fulfillment, with ultimate and complete fulfillment (diner servings) in the millennium.
For instance: the rod of iron rule - That is not the unmerited favor rule of Christ at this time. We are to "love our enemies" and "pray for them that spitefully use" and "present our bodies a living sacrifice" and many other such statements that in the millennial reign will not be found among the believers nor in the character and majesty of Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Christ does not tolerate in the millennium what He tolerates from both believers and unbelievers toward His authority in this current time.
So, when I get to a Psalm such as 2 and others of that level of expressions, I have no problem with stating that they are actually written to be in complete fulfillment at a future time with only threads, teasing nuggets, and little sips of taste given in this present time.
Within that view, I posted about Psalm 2.
I may certainly be wrong, and you have great purchase in expressing the truth of the Scriptures. I look forward to exercising our fingers as we visit your complete statement on another thread!
Agedman:
Perhaps the problem is this:
Personally, I easily, and immediately zeroed in on these verses:
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
And I saw in them the idea that they were possibly only attempting to merely suggest that God desires salvation for the "heathen" as well as national Israel, an idea perfectly in keeping with the ideology of a Calvinist and the non-Calvinist alike. This is an idea which is, I think, not precluded by whether this is more directly prophetic in speaking of the millenium or not. It is still saying that the "heathen" are offered for inheritance AS WELL. You, however zeroed in on this verse:
My immediate reaction was something like: "What the Sam-Hill does verse 12 have to do with it?" I would argue the opposite!!! You appear not to be in the mind of the non-Cal, since....well, the last verse says nothing whatsoever about the topic (at least in isolation) IMO. I think your argument might have been stronger if you had not done this.....THE LAST THING!!! I, (as a non-Cal) or I think most non-Cals would have thought to zero in on was verse 12....Maybe you simply don't understand the non-Cal point of view as well as you might think??
If you are mistaken about the original drafter's intent with their inclusion of Psalm 2, then what you have done is inadvertently created a staw-man argument against a point they might not have been trying to make.
I appreciate your intent at honestly fleshing out some of this, and I think you are submitting a reasonable attempt at counter-argument which is worth discussion. I only post this to point out that I think you might have missed the point as a non-Cal might see it.
On the whole....I think the entire statement is rather poorly worded, and although I tend to agree with the statement and it's intent....It appears rather swiftly and poorly put together for my taste.
Perhaps the problem is this:
Personally, I easily, and immediately zeroed in on these verses:
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
And I saw in them the idea that they were possibly only attempting to merely suggest that God desires salvation for the "heathen" as well as national Israel, an idea perfectly in keeping with the ideology of a Calvinist and the non-Calvinist alike. This is an idea which is, I think, not precluded by whether this is more directly prophetic in speaking of the millenium or not. It is still saying that the "heathen" are offered for inheritance AS WELL. You, however zeroed in on this verse:
My immediate reaction was something like: "What the Sam-Hill does verse 12 have to do with it?" I would argue the opposite!!! You appear not to be in the mind of the non-Cal, since....well, the last verse says nothing whatsoever about the topic (at least in isolation) IMO. I think your argument might have been stronger if you had not done this.....THE LAST THING!!! I, (as a non-Cal) or I think most non-Cals would have thought to zero in on was verse 12....Maybe you simply don't understand the non-Cal point of view as well as you might think??
If you are mistaken about the original drafter's intent with their inclusion of Psalm 2, then what you have done is inadvertently created a staw-man argument against a point they might not have been trying to make.
I appreciate your intent at honestly fleshing out some of this, and I think you are submitting a reasonable attempt at counter-argument which is worth discussion. I only post this to point out that I think you might have missed the point as a non-Cal might see it.
On the whole....I think the entire statement is rather poorly worded, and although I tend to agree with the statement and it's intent....It appears rather swiftly and poorly put together for my taste.
I am not sure why you brought up Psalm 46. I'm a little slow on connecting the dots on some days, so please help me out. I do see at least one major difference between the Psalms. Psalm 2 is pointedly spoken of as a fulfillment in Acts 4. It is a "this is that" fulfillment, just like Peter's this-is-that of Joel/Acts2 and James's this-is-that of Amos 9/Acts 15.
In all cases we have a prophecy and stated fulfillment.
In all cases, as far as I can see, we have no scriptural compulsion to imagine a future fulfillment.
But perhaps this is all derailing the thread from the original intent of the OP.
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A really good post, in which I acknowledge that in my feeble attempt to be "non partisan" I may of made glaring errors.
Because the authors of the affirmations stated a denial portion, then I took that as a signal that they were assuming a side and I was showing how Psalm 2 was not as supportive as they would desire.
By trying to stay "neutral," and not post from a position of cal or non-cal, so that readers would come to the treads with open debate from all sides, I suggested an alternative rendering.
I do hold a moderate (or modified) dispensational view with a pre-mil rapture, which obliges, in my thinking, that the Psalm be predominately recognized for a future completed fulfillment (see post to Icon). In that light, the verses you emphasized would only be fully met in that future time; for Christ does not rule with a rod of iron in this current age, and the heathen do not respond as they will during the millennium to the demand of Christ for their worship in the Jerusalem.
So in that regard, the only verse that might be available to the authors to use as some sort of the affirmation would be verse 12 the very last part. For the rest of the Psalm would be relegated to tribulation/millennial times.
But, they didn't - they claim the whole Psalm. I merely showed that such a claim was not as secure as they would desire and more direct, that the Psalm definitely does not support the claim that God desires every person to be saved but may very well support what the authors would deny.