dispensational/reformed

[agedman]

I believe:

That there was a pre-fall time (undetermined length) in which God had "face to face" fellowship with Adam (and Eve).

That there was a time existed from the fall until Noah in which people lived a longer time.

That there was a time existed from the flood until Moses in which God selected an individual and grew a nation of His choosing.

That there was a time existed in which the written Law (more than the decalogue) was presented by God and served as a determining point in which humankind could be held to more than opinion and feelings.

That there is a time exists (undetermined in length) in which the law serves as a "school master" pointing to Christ who provided payment for all sins of humankind and provides reconciliation between God and man of all who believe.

That there will be a time of specific length (1000 years) in which Christ will rule the whole world from the throne seat of David while Satan is chained.

That there will be a place (time no more) God will judge ALL men at the great white throne, and those who do not have their name written in the Lamb's book of life will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

That ALL who have their name in the Lamb's book of life will spend eternity in the place that Christ is preparing for them - the new heaven and new earth.

​

To shorten this OP, my soteriology would probably be considered reformed.

The dispensational camp isn't comfortable with me because I am reformed.

The reformed camp isn't comfortable with me because I am dispensational as expressed in the above statements.

Is there anyone else who have similar views and knows the struggle/rejection?

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe:

That there was a pre-fall time (undetermined length) in which God had "face to face" fellowship with Adam (and Eve).

That there was a time existed from the fall until Noah in which people lived a longer time.

That there was a time existed from the flood until Moses in which God selected an individual and grew a nation of His choosing.

That there was a time existed in which the written Law (more than the decalogue) was presented by God and served as a determining point in which humankind could be held to more than opinion and feelings.

That there is a time exists (undetermined in length) in which the law serves as a "school master" pointing to Christ who provided payment for all sins of humankind and provides reconciliation between God and man of all who believe.

That there will be a time of specific length (1000 years) in which Christ will rule the whole world from the throne seat of David while Satan is chained.

That there will be a place (time no more) God will judge ALL men at the great white throne, and those who do not have their name written in the Lamb's book of life will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

That ALL who have their name in the Lamb's book of life will spend eternity in the place that Christ is preparing for them - the new heaven and new earth.

​

To shorten this OP, my soteriology would probably be considered reformed.

The dispensational camp isn't comfortable with me because I am reformed.

The reformed camp isn't comfortable with me because I am dispensational as expressed in the above statements.

Is there anyone else who have similar views and knows the struggle/rejection?

Many of us started and taught in dispensational churches.The system offers an explanation from genesis to revelation....Jesus and the church win.

We have also found that others have offered an explanation of all 66 books, that we find more in keeping with the bible as one whole truth without 7 divisions.

 

[HAMel]

The dispensational camp isn't comfortable with me because I am reformed.

The reformed camp isn't comfortable with me because I am dispensational as expressed in the above statements.

With all due respect, agedman, what difference does it make what either camp thinks or believes regarding you? Should either side decide they aren't comfortable with you would appear to be their problem. Not yours.

While I ain't never "gad-u-ated" from the Yale Skool of Higher Bible Learnin' and Discernment it does seem to me that a personal relationship with the Lord is exactly that..., a personal relationship! Accordingly, everyone else needs to butt out of said relationship.

Needless to say, it should not be a burden to be a Christian.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with HAMel on that....are you a believer? And then do others see the fruits of your belief? Look if I'm hated because I don't follow either Dispy or Covenantal theologies so what? If I have to go to Methodists & Catholics to feed the poor and house the destitute....then so what? The lords calling you brother to get out of your head and look in the eyes of the downtrodden, the broken, the hurting and see Christ there. So do that brother....get out of your head (where the lord never told you to be) and touch the flesh of Jesus & be healed.

 

[kyredneck]

...Is there anyone else who have similar views and knows the struggle/rejection?

I believe John MacArthur is also confused in the same manner as you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe John MacArthur is also confused in the same manner as you.

you want to qualify that statement in more detail? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[kyredneck]

Isn't he Reformed AND Dispy?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Isn't he Reformed AND Dispy?

Yes.... so what? I know lots of them there type....many come out of the Brethren group. Others have seen the light of DoG but still cling to Dispy theology. Me, both Dispy & Conventional Theology have some areas where I dont agree so I support neither..... performing to wait on more formidable thought out theologies. And I also know people who have similar viewpoints..... but none of this is solid is my point.

 

[kyredneck]

.....more formidable thought out theologies.......

The doctrine of an everlasting covenant made between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world is formidable theology.

 

[agedman]

The difficulty with the old dispensational thinking seems to rest upon the teaching by some that God changed the soteriology or even his mode of communication in each "economy." To this day, this seems to be the basic argument against dispensationalists.

Having really never bought into that thinking, frankly I don't know that it is prevalent in the last 40 or so years - I just never particularly cared to investigate - it was stupid thinking not worthy of my time.

God from Adam has saved humankind exactly the same way - through the shed blood of Christ (for a short answer). God has also given instruction in justice, judgment, righteousness, ... the same way - through His word and the Holy Spirit.

Because I do divide the Scriptures into blocks (see the OP), and just because I do believe in a literal millennial reign, most reformed have a certain "distance of mockery" because they are "covenant" thinking and proclaim that "I just haven't seen the light, yet." Often the stress is just the constant undercurrent of disagreement over the place of Israel in the Scriptures and taking the prophecies at face value.

Covenant folks like to boast that they interpret the Scriptures more accurately, and I personally find the more literal interpretation as accurate. Perhaps the greatest disagreement is in the Scriptures having to do with the "grafting" and the "millennium." This also is reflected in the thinking of the literal return of Christ. There are covenant folks that had/have the pre WW1 thinking that the church is going to conquer the world and then Christ will return. I never found that consistent with what the Scriptures present Christ as teaching.

So, as a bible teacher, if I am in a reformed congregation, then I am obliged to not teach what most would consider the "whole counsel of God."

On the other side, in the more thoughtless and typical Baptist church that has little true understanding of the doctrines of grace, reformed thinking and actual "modern" Calvinistic thinking, the problem is prior bias and learned contempt which is not only faulty, but highly misinformed. All the typical folks in this church have heard is the view is "bad theology" or even worse that such is heretical theology.

So, as a bible teacher, if I am in a Baptist church of that mode, there is the typical misinformed tension that, if not carefully attended, will flare into an inferno. The tension never completely resolves, and so, again, I am obliged to not teach what most would consider the "whole counsel of God."

Of course, being opposed to the emotional driven contemporary worship style, and other such things doesn't help, either.

Anyone else in this same type of situation?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The doctrine of an everlasting covenant made between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before the foundation of the world is formidable theology.

Is it your contention that dispensationalism denies or distorts this teaching in some way? Before you answer, I'd suggest you read Agedman's last post on this thread.

 

[kyredneck]

It depends on what ‘flavor’ Dispy one is:

Poll For The Dispensationalists_Which Are You?

I think HankD nailed it here:

“Dispensationalism seems to be and always has been a moving target.”

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It depends on what ‘flavor’ Dispy one is:

One, as a dispensationalist, I don't appreciate a flippant word being used to describe the theological map that dispensationalism is, any more than a Catholic likes being called a "mackerel snapper" or we Baptists like being called "Bible thumpers." Just a headsup.

Secondly, there is, as Agedman stated, really only "one flavor" of dispensationalism today. The "two methods of salvation" claim by anti-dispensation Reformists was hardly ever valid, and it certainly isn't valid today.

I think HankD nailed it here:

“Dispensationalism seems to be and always has been a moving target.”

I think the assumption that dispensational thought changes on a regular basis is absurd. If one truly studies -- for the purpose of understanding, not for the purpose of attempting to find fault --the complex concept of dispensationalism, one will be amazed at the symmetry and truth found in it.

 

[kyredneck]

One, as a dispensationalist, I don't appreciate a flippant word being used to describe the theological map that dispensationalism is.....

....and I probably won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying about that.

 

[agedman]

See,

Even on the BB, the temperament is one of mocking and scorn toward the dispensational thinking by covenant intolerance.

How much more is it found in the typical reformed church that has been steeped in "covenant" theology?

When you are reformed thinking in a non-reformed assembly, it can become just as ugly.

But what of a mix of the two?

Has anyone dealt with a staff or assembly in which reformed soteriology was held with dispensational eschatology; or perhaps the opposite non-reformed soteriology held with covenant eschatology?

Does/has anyone else experienced the situation?

 

[Inspector Javert]

See,
Does/has anyone else experienced this situation?

Unless I am mistaken....Dr. Bob seems to be both as well, but I think the Church he attends is as well. (That's if I understand correctly).

I know one thing about Dispensationalists.....I've known them all my life, (been one too) and I've not known ONE who actually believes 1/10th the crap some others claim they do.

Had one the other day say that a "Dispy" doesn't believe the Moral Law was valid for the N.T. Church.........Then the poster made the distinction between the "Ceremonial Law" and the "Moral Law" and acted like this was somehow news to Dispy's that we'd never heard of before.... :laugh::laugh:

So, accordingly, you are supposedly, therefore both "reformed" AND an "anti-nomian" (by virtue of merely being Dispensational)...........I guess you'll have to figure out how that works for yourself.:thumbs:

 

[Inspector Javert]

Secondly, there is, as Agedman stated, really only "one flavor" of dispensationalism today. The "two methods of salvation" claim by anti-dispensation Reformists was hardly ever valid, and it certainly isn't valid today.

Very true:thumbsup:.......see my above post.

Somehow, the fact that God has always saved ALL men by Grace and through faith (regardless of what "Dispensation" they were in) is something that non-Dispy's seem to think is news to us...........

I've never thought otherwise, known Dispy's all my life, and they all knew that too.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by thisnumbersdisconnected
Secondly, there is, as Agedman stated, really only "one flavor" of dispensationalism today. The "two methods of salvation" claim by anti-dispensation Reformists was hardly ever valid, and it certainly isn't valid today.

Very true:thumbsup:.......see my above post......

thisnumbersdisconnected and Inspector Javert, what a pair.

 

[sag38]

If you are not dispensational that is your choice but why do so many of them have to be insulting as if they hold the intellectual and spiritual high ground? Yep, that's going to win a lot of people over to your side KY.

 

[kyredneck]

What ever gave you the idea that I'm out to 'win people' over to my side? I simply state truth as I see It; take it or leave it. If 'my style' hurts your lil' feelings then ignore my posts.