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Dispensational theology is the predominant theology in evangelical circles today, originating in the 1820s in the teachings of J.N. Darby, made famous by C.I. Scofield and his study Bible, tweaked by Charles Ryrie, John Woolvard adn Dallas Seminary, and considered as essential to proper belief in many fundamental circles.Originally posted by longshot:
I have seen the term on other threads in the past and am having trouble absorbing the concept. Could anyone please explain this to me in laymans terms? Thanks
But as I see it, very few did understand and respond to the Old Testament. Even after all the quotes of the prophets that were given by Jesus, the apostles didn't understand till John 16:29 what they were dealing with. Even then they had doubts.Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
A key passage on whether or not God has cast off his people Israel as a nation forever is Jeremiah 31:31-40. In that passage, God specifically delineates that Israel "as a nation" will not be cast off. If God has cast off Israel as a nation, then there are some serious problems with Jeremiah 31 and the New Covenant.
When some recommend that we read the OT through the NT, you must remember the simple matter of hermeneutics. A text cannot mean what it never meant. If the NT is necessary for revelation to have meaning, then we deny progressive revelation ... at the very least, the perspicuity of the OT. In short, if the OT means nothing by itself, or if it cannot be understood by the original reader, then it served no purpose for OT Israel. Yet we see God very clearly expecting the nation of Israel to understand and respond on the basis of teh words in the text. If God expected that of them, he expects no less of us than to understand the words as they are written.
This is true but that does not mean the OT was unclear. Because of sin, Israel had their eyes blinded. They didn't believe God in the OT. But the revelation was essentially clear. In 1 Peter 1:12, we are told that the prophets understood exactly what they were writing; they simply didn't know the time or the person.Originally posted by longshot:
But as I see it, very few did understand and respond to the Old Testament. Even after all the quotes of the prophets that were given by Jesus, the apostles didn't understand till John 16:29 what they were dealing with. Even then they had doubts.
Some say that the OT promises of a kingdom on earth have now been replaced by a "spiritual kingdom." They think that the NT revelation has superceded the OT revelation. We do not agree. We think the promises of God to Israel of a kingdom with a divine ruler in Jerusalem are actual promises. In Gal 3, many say that the church has taken the place of Israel, that the promise to Abraham has been transferred to the church because the nation of Israel rejected the Messiah. Yet that passage makes clear that the promise has not been annulled by the Law. Therefore, the consequences to Israel of breaking the Mosaic Law (cf Jer 31:32) are not permanent. The promise to Abraham (land, seed, and blessing; cf Gen 12:1-3) are still in effect for the genetic descendants of Abraham (cf Gen 15:1-5). Lastly, some argue that Gal 6:16 means that the church is now the "Israel of God." Yet that passage says nothing of the sort. It makes a clear distinction between the church and Israel. "And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." The word "and" clearly marks two groups of people, not one as they would contend.Could I get an example of reading the Old Testament through the New Testament? (Or vice versa)?
Is there a verse which says grace ends or the rapture comes before the tribulation? Isn't the covenant of grace the "everlasting covenant?" (Hebrews 13:20) Isn't the gospel of grace the "everlasting gospel?" (Revelation 14:6) How could we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his grace?...When ‘ . . . the fulness of the Gentiles comes in' meaning that when the age of grace is completed at the point in time of the rapture of the church [I Thess. 4:17] then something else is going to happen...
Does the "the times of the Gentiles" refer to the church or to unbelievers? "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). Has Jerusalem been "trodden down" in the past and present by the church or by unbelieving Rome and Islam, and won't it be trodden down in the future tribulation? "The holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" (Revelation 11:2)....This is the age of the Gentiles...
Is there a verse which refers to "the church age" and says it ends before the tribulation? Isn't the church forever? "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21)....After the church age has been completed...
Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation....Many will be saved during the Great Tribulation...
"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Romans 9:8)....The promise to Abraham (land, seed, and blessing; cf Gen 12:1-3) are still in effect for the genetic descendants of Abraham (cf Gen 15:1-5)...
"At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints" (Ephesians 2:12, 19)....a clear distinction between the church and Israel...
I don't believe this has been shown.....The pretrib position... the distinction between Israel and the church are all well established from Scripture...
I say it is also for believing Gentiles. The scriptures I quoted above showed that believing Gentiles are also the seed of Abraham and will also inherit the land....You say that that land covenant is for believing Gentiles...
Which ones will go unfulfilled?...if you are right then promises of God go unfulfilled...
It has been shown a number of places. To give some quick references, consider Rom 9-11, exp 11:24ff. Otherwise, see Renald Showers, "There REally is a Difference." He deals with a number of passages.Originally posted by postrib:
I don't believe this has been shown..
Gen 15 expressly gives the land to those who are from the body of Abraham. That promise was never changed. Which of the above quoted verses shows the land from the 'river of the north to the river of Egypt' (Gen 15) given to the believing Gentiles?I say it is also for believing Gentiles. The scriptures I quoted above showed that believing Gentiles are also the seed of Abraham and will also inherit the land.
Many ... to list a few: The one about Abraham's descendants dwelling in the land for an extended period of time (Gen 15), in peace (2 Sam 7), with the Davidic king ruling over them (major and minor prophets). The promise of the New Covenant (Jer 31). The promise of Rom 11:25-26.Which ones will go unfulfilled?
I believe Romans 11:17 says that believing Gentiles have been grafted into spiritual Israel and unbelieving Jews have been broken off....consider Rom 9-11, exp 11:24ff...
Note again what it says: "I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land" (Genesis 17:8); "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:16, 29)....Gen 15 expressly gives the land to those who are from the body of Abraham...
Amen....That promise was never changed...
Given also to believing Gentiles: "So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 47:21-23)....Which of the above quoted verses shows the land from the 'river of the north to the river of Egypt' (Gen 15) given to the believing Gentiles?...
How will these go unfulfilled?...postrib: "Which [promises] will go unfulfilled?"
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Many ... to list a few: The one about Abraham's descendants dwelling in the land for an extended period of time (Gen 15), in peace (2 Sam 7), with the Davidic king ruling over them (major and minor prophets). The promise of the New Covenant (Jer 31). The promise of Rom 11:25-26...
Note that nothing is promised TO the multitudinous seed of Genesis 15:5, and note again what Paul taught regarding the promises TO the seed: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ... And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:16, 29)....That promise to Abraham was specifically said to be to his genetic seed (Gen 15:5)...
I believe Paul explained what God meant....What you appear to deny is that God meant what he said in the OT...
As do I....I think God meant exactly what he said...
Believing Gentiles have been joined to spiritual Israel:...In 11:26, we are told that after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, Israel will be restored. It is ludicrous is the church is Israel...