Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Many who bought the book did not buy it due to predictions about when the rapture will occur.
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Dispensational Truth - In Time & Eternity
- Thread starter JD731
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Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Book sales is hardly a representation of who believes them, especially if you are including the left behind series. If you can’t figure out that the series is fiction, I can’t help you.
But there are lots of best selling authors who are not really.
easternstar
Active Member
Did or did not millions excitedly follow these two men because of what they believed and taught about the rapture?
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
I didn’t. I know lots of people who didn’t. I know more who didn’t than did.
Nope. We oppose him. It is not dispensational theology to predict the Rapture. In fact, I specifically warn against it in my college/seminary class, "Dispensational Theology."Dispensationilists should love this guy. For several years, he has forecast the rapture, only to have to extend the time, when the rapture didn't happen. Currently, he's expecting the rapture to happen this year, 2026, most likely this spring, or this coming fall:
Daniel 11: God's Master Plan ... Unsealed
A unique, simple, and logical explanation of Daniel 11, highlighting events preceding the rapture, the seals, and how everything fits together.daniel11truth.com
You know, you really should stop sharing all your mistaken theories about dispensationalism. You keep getting it wrong.
Nope.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
It sounds to me like marketing.
They tell you how much everyone else loves it so that you will buy their books, watch their programs, and support your tv evangelist.
Thousands of responses, say by email, could be from hundreds of people who send lots of emails.
It is always good to see how the presentation of the data is manipulating your perception.
When you find lots of “best sellers” available at the $5Tree store, your not looking at a best seller, your looking at a much promoted, “didn’t seller.”
Wow, I just checked out the website referred to here. It's crazy, and not strict dispensational thinking, but more someone's idea of a post-trib position, or maybe a pre-wrath position (neither of which are standard dispensationalism): says the Rapture comes after the abomination of desolations, the war with Iran is fulfilling Daniel 11:29-30, etc. etc. As a representational dispensationalist, I don't believe that stuff at all.Dispensationilists should love this guy. For several years, he has forecast the rapture, only to have to extend the time, when the rapture didn't happen. Currently, he's expecting the rapture to happen this year, 2026, most likely this spring, or this coming fall:
Daniel 11: God's Master Plan ... Unsealed
A unique, simple, and logical explanation of Daniel 11, highlighting events preceding the rapture, the seals, and how everything fits together.daniel11truth.com
People who mock the rapture of the church are also unable to give the biblical definition of the church.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Right and that's the same as saying, "No dispensational theology treats a dispensation as something to be "dispensed", as defined by the Bible where Paul says, “A dispensation of the Gospel is committed to me” (I Cor. 9:17); where Paul is properly using the definition of the word 'dispensation', where he means, "the Gospel had been entrusted to him to be dispensed by him."
I don't even know what you call this.
The words would be that you would have been 'disappointed in yourself', if you had been making what you knew to be a guess about something in my post, since you knew deep down inside that you weren't entirely sure of it, for example, so then it might make you feel bad about just guessing about something, if you had.
But, you didn't guess.
You did something else that I am not sure what it is I read there.
We start with a Toss-Up; "Alan, or whoever".
Now, we have a couple of choices to choose from.
It could be Alan that wrote this entire post.
But if it was, what becomes of him having done what you said you wanted him to do in the first place by writing his own scathing answer in the post, when the comment immediately devalues his valuable contribution, and just happens to throw that in there; "whoever he is currently quoting anonymously", when all you have to do is look for a reference stated or learn to click on the embedded URL in the titles introducing some thoughts that someone God gave a good mind to had to say that I have unearthed as the best information I have found on it.
Just ask yourself, "is there a credit given in the post with regard to the original author; then if not, I wrote it. It's easy really.
Kind of as easy as your innocent looking comment "whoever he is currently quoting anonymously", to then be coming in for the kill with an entirely unsubstantiated veiled indictment; "(Note: we do not allow anonymous quotes in the research papers of our students. Every quote must be sourced. To do otherwise is plagiarism)", as if it were a foregone conclusion, since it would obviously be for anyone guilty of "currently quoting anonymously".
Ah, 'easy'... Maybe that's what it's called.
Too 'easy' to talk about.
@Alan Dale Gross - You are not taking the word of the Lord nearly serious enough. When Jesus Christ says unequivocally that he is coming back in the clouds to resurrect and glorify his church and take them to the Father's house seven years before he comes back with the spotless glorious church for the wedding ceremony and inauguration of his physical earthly millennial kingdom on earth from Jerusalem where he will rule over the nations, why would you say it is not true?
It is a serious offence to deny it but it is much more serious to try to persuade others that it isn't true and to become a teacher of an alternate view.
John, in the beginning of the Revelation of Jesus Christ when there was a church on earth in Re chapter 1 tells him to write the things which are, the things which were, and the things that are to come. That is the same thing as Jesus saying as he spoke with him immediately after revealing himself in his glorious vision of himself told John to "Write the things which thou hast seen (the vision), and the things which are (the churches), and the things which shall be hereafter;"(here after the churches- the tribulation = time of Jacob's trouble).
Now look, if someone tells you to write about three time periods and then lays them out for you plainly in plain language, why would you have trouble following instructions?
He saw a vision - things which was.
Things which are - 7 churches
Things which shall be hereafter - Here after the churches.
Where was John? he was on the earth and so were the churches at that time.
How do miss this?
After this (the churches) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (in heaven), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (the churches).
Re 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
How do you miss that the church is in heaven and coming back with our Lord Jesus?
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Do you just not understand what the church is? The church has been in heaven since Re 4:1. The 1000 years is the Day of the Lord and is the 7th dispensation, completing the 7 day week of 1000 year days of God.
Read these things again and believe what you read is my advice.
It is a serious offence to deny it but it is much more serious to try to persuade others that it isn't true and to become a teacher of an alternate view.
John, in the beginning of the Revelation of Jesus Christ when there was a church on earth in Re chapter 1 tells him to write the things which are, the things which were, and the things that are to come. That is the same thing as Jesus saying as he spoke with him immediately after revealing himself in his glorious vision of himself told John to "Write the things which thou hast seen (the vision), and the things which are (the churches), and the things which shall be hereafter;"(here after the churches- the tribulation = time of Jacob's trouble).
Now look, if someone tells you to write about three time periods and then lays them out for you plainly in plain language, why would you have trouble following instructions?
He saw a vision - things which was.
Things which are - 7 churches
Things which shall be hereafter - Here after the churches.
Where was John? he was on the earth and so were the churches at that time.
How do miss this?
After this (the churches) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither (in heaven), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (the churches).
Re 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
How do you miss that the church is in heaven and coming back with our Lord Jesus?
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Do you just not understand what the church is? The church has been in heaven since Re 4:1. The 1000 years is the Day of the Lord and is the 7th dispensation, completing the 7 day week of 1000 year days of God.
Read these things again and believe what you read is my advice.
I don't know why you keep saying this, and I don't understand what you think is being "dispensed". There is nothing in dispensationalism that talks about "dispensing" anything, and the word "dispensation" does not refer to any kind of "dispensing." On the hope that you will learn something from this, here are some definitions from one of my lectures. Note: look at the bottom for the sources of the quotes; the blue numbers are simply blue, and don't take you anywhere; that's how the BB software handles such quotes with footnotes.
Definitions of a Dispensation
The term “dispensation” occurs in the KJV four times (1 Cor. 9:17, Eph. 1:10, Eph. 3:2, Col. 1:25). Of these, Eph. 1:10 is quite close to the meaning of the term in dispensationalism.
C. I. Scofield defined a dispensation as a “period of time during which man is tested in respect to obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.”[1] However, this is problematic in that the lexical meaning of the Greek word does not include the concept of a time period.
The Greek word is oikonomia (οἰκονομία), which occurs three times as “stewardship” in Luke 16:1-4. (The parable continues to v. 10.) Thus, the Greek word occurs a total of seven times in the New Testament.
Friberg’s lexicon defines this word thus: “(1) literally, relating to the task of an οἰκονόμος (steward) in household administration stewardship, management (LU 16.2); (2) figuratively; (a) of the apostolic office in God's redemptive work task, responsibility, trusteeship (CO 1.25); (b) of God's arrangements for mankind's redemption plan, arrangement, purpose (EP 3.9); 1T 1.4 may mean (divine) training, but (divine) plan is also possible.”[2]
One Bible encyclopedia defines it as “a stewardship, the management or disposition of affairs entrusted to one.” [3] The revised version of that work defines it this way: “The term refers to the action of giving out, specifically referring to God’s dealings with men. In 2 Cor. 3 Paul contrasts the brightness of Moses’ face in the giving of the OT law (v. 5) which brought death (v. 7) with the ‘greater splendor’ (v. 8) of the giving of the Spirit which brought righteousness (v. 9).”[4]
Chafer gives a better definition: “A dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.”[5]
Again, Charles Ryrie in our textbook gives this concise definition: “A dispensation is a distinguishable economy in the outworking of God’s purpose.”[6]
Note that Scofield’s definition is mistaken, because a dispensation is not an age. He wrote, “A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture.”[7]
Distinguishing the dispensations according to a literal hermeneutic brings one to distinguish between Israel and the church. Thus, the premillennial coming of Christ becomes a logical conclusion, and a literal millennium with Christ ruling the world on the throne of David is a reality.
This brings us to these concise definitions.
A Biblical dispensation is a stewardship from God in which mankind is given a task to fulfill.
Dispensationalism is a theology in which the dispensations of the Bible are carefully delineated for the glory of God.
[1] C. I. Scofield, ed., Scofield Reference Bible (New York: Oxford U. Press, 1945), 5.
[2] Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg and Neva Miller, Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2000), 279.
[3] The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915 edition), accessed through e-Sword software.
[4] Geoffrey W. Bromiley, ed., The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, rev., Vol. 1 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979), 962.
[5] Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. VII (Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948), 122.
[6] Ryrie, 33.
[7] C. I. Scofield, Scofield Reference Bible (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1907), 5.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
A quick question.
I agree with you on dispensations.
And it is important to note that salvation is through Christ in any dispensation. The just shall live by faith.
I don’t have any trouble with the aspect of time. The only reason to remove the assumption of time periods is if any dispensation runs concurrently with any other.
There is no point where man has no responsibility. Is there any point where you see differences of dispensations simultaneously?
One of the biggest issues that anti-dispensationalists have, in my experience, is that there are some people who think that we are discussing how salvation is given.
Any good dispensationalist will tell you…
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
The question for you. The general statement for anyone who doesn’t understand the difference between dispensations and salvation.
Yes, obviously the dispensations each occupy time, but the time frame is much less important than the stewardship God gives to mankind in each dispensation. Innocency was pretty short, but the church has already lasted 2000 years!
Yes, I do believe that there are times when the dispensations continue into the next one. For example, we still have consciences even if the dispensation of human conscience is over, and people in the millennium will be saved by faith in the crucified and risen Christ, just as we do. The stewardship/responsibility sometimes remains even when time marches on, though Law of course was fulfilled in Christ.
Yes, exactly right. The modern dispensationalist believes that salvation before Christ is faith in the coming Messiah, and after the cross is faith in the risen Christ.
So do we who are CT Reformed Baptists
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Because, as opposed to being an etymology fallacy, the meaning as 'dispensation' is used all the way back to how it is used in the Bible, prior to the most recent advent of modernism as Dispensationalism, has to do with the stewardship of dispensing the Gospel, which is the all important Message of the New Testament Era, with regard to what the Lord uses as "the Power of God unto Salvation" and to Reveal the Mystery that the Gospel was to Come in Full Force to the Gentiles and as it says in Ephesians 3:6; "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and Partakers of His Promise in Christ by the Gospel:".
Context before; "For though I Preach the Gospel,
I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me;
yea, woe is unto me, if I Preach not the Gospel!
KJV
1 Corinthians 9:17;
"For if I do this thing willingly, I have a Reward:
but if against my will,
a dispensation of the Gospel is committed unto me."
Context after; 18; "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I Preach the Gospel, I may make the Gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the Gospel."
An administration, or stewardship, concerning the 'dispensing' of the Gospel was committed to Paul.
Not an administration, or stewardship, within which Paul was 'given new rules from God' as a challenge 'to see if he would fail' and, therefore, 'bring Glory to God'.
The Preaching of the Gospel and the Salvation of souls were what were both to bring Glory to God.
...
KJV
Ephesians 1:10;
"That in the dispensation of the Fulness of Times"
(in which His Gospel was Commanded to be Preached/'dispensed')
"He might Gather Together in One All Things in Christ,
both which are in Heaven, and which are on Earth; even in Him:"
11; "In Whom also we have Obtained an Inheritance,
being Predestinated according to the Purpose of Him
Who Worketh all Things after the Counsel of His Own Will:
12; "That we should be to the Praise of His Glory,
who first Trusted in Christ.
13; "In Whom ye also Trusted,
after that ye Heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your Salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were Sealed with that holy Spirit of Promise,
14; "Which is the Earnest of our Inheritance
until the Redemption of the Purchased Possession,
unto the Praise of His Glory."
...
KJV
Ephesians 3:2;
"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the Grace of God
which is Given me to you-ward:"
3; "How that by Revelation He Made Known unto me the Mystery;
(as I wrote afore in few words,
4; "Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the Mystery of Christ)
5; "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now Revealed unto His Holy Apostles
and Prophets by the Spirit;
6; "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and Partakers of His Promise in Christ by the Gospel:"
...
Context before:
23; "If ye continue in the Faith Grounded and Settled, and be not moved away from the Hope of the Gospel, which ye have heard, and which was Preached to every creature which is under Heaven; whereof I Paul am Made a minister;
24; "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:"
KJV
Colossians 1:25;
"Whereof I am Made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is Given to me for you, to Fulfil the Word of God;"
Context after; 26; Even the Mystery
which hath been Hid from Ages and from Generations,
but now is Made Manifest to His saints:
27; "To whom God would make known
what is the Riches of the Glory of this Mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the Hope of Glory:
28; "Whom we Preach, warning every man,
and teaching every man in all wisdom;
that we may present every man Perfect in Christ Jesus:
29; "Whereunto I also labour,
striving according to His Working, which Worketh in me Mightily."
Paul was Given the Stewardship of 'dispensing' the Gospel,
"according to His Working, which Worketh in me Mightily",
to Preach it
"Whereof I am Made a minister,
according to the dispensation of God which is Given to me for you
(the Stewardship of 'dispensing' the Gospel), to Fulfil the Word of God;"
Colossians 1:25;
Source: Search: "Dispensations"
"It is important to notice that in the first two of these instances [ there can be no question that the Bible uses the word dispensatin in exactly the same way the dispensationalist does" (Charles Ryrie, Dispensationalism, p. 32; Eph. 1:10 & 3:2).
Are you actually calling dispensationalism a "modernism"??? That term is a synonym of "liberalism," which is a total denial of the supernatural. On the contrary, dispensationalists believe that God is supernaturally working all through history, and not one single dispensationalist has turned liberal/modernist from believing the theology. We interpret the Bible literally, which liberals cannot do or they would become believers.
Here is what Baptist theologian Millard Erickson says about modernism: "Modernism has been essentially humanistic. The human being is the center of reality, and in a sense everything exists for the sake of the human" (Christian Theology, 3rd ed., p. 25). This is the exact opposite of dispensational theology.
Really? So you finally say what dispensationalism is "dispensing," and you think it is the Gospel. Friend, the Bible never uses the term "dispense" in relation to the Gospel. It is always proclaimed, kerusso (κηρύσσω), never "dispensed."
You see, the problem is that "dispensation" actually means "stewardship," and Paul was given a stewardship of the Gospel. And it was to glorify God, as you say. But you misunderstand dispensational theology here. The dispensation of grace/the church was not given to any individual, but to all of mankind, just like each previous dispensation of the seven was given.
I completely agree, as do all dispensationalists, even hyper-dispensationalists.
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