Dispensationalism and the Doctrine of Election

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Dr.K., I read chapter 13. A couple of items.

You said people "become elect." That is not biblical. Show where anyone becomes elect.

I think you are confusing election with regeneration.An elect individual remains an ungodly sinner until God the Father draws him to the Son through through regeneration.So he becomes regenerate, but does not become elect.Election is fromeverlasting.

You said :"One becomes a member of God's family by a choice through faith.Man's choice is salvation."

No, you got that one wrong. Biblical election is God doing the choosing, not man.And just a little earlier you had quoted John 1:13 ! I'll quote it from TNIV:"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

Also, for your consideration, Romans 9:16 :"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

James 1:18 :"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth,that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created."

You said :"The word elect is never used regarding salvation. Election is vocational, not salvational." That's an utter denial of biblical truth.

2 Thess. 2:13,14 :" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (NIV)

Biblical election is toward salvation ( ok, excepting the case of the elect angels and Christ Himself).

The words "call", "called","calling" are tied up in election.Those who he called according to his purpose in Romans 8:28&30.1 Cor. 1:24:"but to those who God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."1:26:..."think of what you were when you were called."verse 27:"But God chose"verse 28:"He chose".The word "called" occurs nine times in chapter seven of 1 Cor. alone.See 1:9 :"God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

I really do not even know where to begin answering your post. It is almost like you have no knowledge of Biblical Hermeneutics or an inductive methodology.:tear:

God has two main elect groups:
1. Israel
2. The Church

You become one of these two elect groups conditionally.

1. You become part of elect National Israel by being born a descendant of Abraham (physical seed).
2. You become part of the elect Church by being "born again" and become a descendant of the Faith Seed of Abraham.

This is clear from Galatians chapter 3.

“6 Even as {in the same way} Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith {trust in Christ and are “born again”}, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham {Gen. 12:3}, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith {“born again” believers from all nations} are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law (The Mosaic Covenant was a suzerain-vassal agreement, meaning it was a bilateral and conditional covenant between God and Israel and, therefore, was a covenant of “works,” unlike the Abrahamic Covenant, which was an unconditional covenant given “by grace” and received “through faith.”} are under the curse {in the sense of being opposite of God’s conditional blessing; this is not referring to the curse of Hell.}: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them {the Mosaic Covenant was a “blessing and a curse” covenant; Deut. 11:26-32 compared with Deut. 29:1 through 30:20}. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident {keeping the conditions of the Mosaic Covenant could not save anyone; this Covenant was not about salvation even though Apostate Israel had made it to be}: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law {the Mosaic Covenant} is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the {unconditional} blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit (being “born again” or regenerated} through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ {the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant were actually made to Christ and all those expressing faith in the Promised One; i.e., Christ}. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed {Messiah} should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:6-29).


If you look carefully at Gal. 3:19, you will see that the Abrahamic Covenant is actually a covenant with Messiah. You just have to read the text without your Covenant Theology eisegetical glasses on.

When you make a statement accusing me of being a "hyper-dispensationalist," you merely expose your own ignorance of what that is.

I have at least studied Calvinism, Arminianism, and Covenant Theology to know what they believe. You obviously really do not have a clue of what dispensationalism is.:BangHead:

 

[Rippon]

Imporatant Things That Need To Be Dealt With

You said people "become elect." That is not biblical. Show where anyone becomes elect.

I think you are confusing election with regeneration.An elect individual remains an ungodly sinner until God the Father draws him to the Son through through regeneration.So he becomes regenerate, but does not become elect.Election is from everlasting.

You said :"One becomes a member of God's family by a choice through faith.Man's choice is salvation."

No, you got that one wrong. Biblical election is God doing the choosing, not man.And just a little earlier you had quoted John 1:13 ! I'll quote it from TNIV:"children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

Also, for your consideration, Romans 9:16 :"It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

James 1:18 :"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth,that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created."

You said :"The word elect is never used regarding salvation. Election is vocational, not salvational." That's an utter denial of biblical truth.

2 Thess. 2:13,14 :" But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (NIV)

Biblical election is toward salvation ( ok, excepting the case of the elect angels and Christ Himself).

I don't know why you insist that election has nothing to do with salvation. You might as well maintain the silly notion that sanctification has nothing to do with holiness!

Dr.K., you put the following into a compartment that supposedly deals with Israelites alone.

Matt. 24:22,24,31; Mark 13:20,22,27; Luke 18:7; 1 Peter 2:6; and 2 John 1:1,13. You have no warrannt to declare that these reference to His elect are all referencing Jews only. You sound like a hyper-Dispensationalist that Dr. Ironside warned about. Harry Ironside was certaainly a Dispensationalist -- but he wasn't hyper about it. You, on the other hand, are.

Ephesians 1:5 says that he predestined us in accordance to His will. The Lord has elected us ( the ones so predestined) to be saved. We are saved in time because He has chosen us in eternity past.We do not elect ourselves. We do not become elect, our election is not a merew call to service. Our election is toward savation to the praise of His glorious grace!

Dr.K., if you aren't a hyper-dispensationalist, you certainly tend toward that theory.You deny that huge swaths of Scripture apply toward Gentile Christians as I have demonstrated above.

And to make the claim that the doctrine of biblical election has nothing to do with salvation has to be denounced.Dispense with your system and go with biblical truths.

Even Robert Shank, in your 4th article, acknowledges that election is toward salvation in the final paragraph. He wants it both ways by also saying election deals with service.But you deny any linkage between elction and salvation. That's just terribly wrong.

We, the elect, have been so before the foundation of the world. "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph.1:4 NASBU)."God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation" ( 2 Thess.2:13). In 2 Tim. 1:9:"... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."( NASBU).These passages should convince a Bible-believer of the truth of our election before time began.Still more Scriptures point to the same conclusion.

So you can continue to spend valuable time in denying biblical truths, with those long articles of yours,that's your choice. I would encourage you to let the Bible speak for itself in all areas.However, here, especially, concerning election --- Believe the scriptural account.

 

[skypair]

rip,

How can Israel be called "elect" if most of them weren't saved? and are dead now never having been saved? Your definition of "elect unto salvation" just doesn't make sense.

You can say the saved are "elect" but you can't say the "elect" are saved or even will be saved. The Bible doesn't see it that way.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

You become part of the elect Church by being "born again" and become a descendant of the Faith Seed of Abraham.

My good doctor, When were you elected? Before or After you were born again? And regardless of when your election took place, how were you born again? By chance? By your own will power? Are you saying that you met the conditions of salvation? You caused your own birth? If you met the conditions of salavtion, then doesn't that mean that God is obligated to save you? So how does grace fit this scheme?

BTW just in case you're not clear on it - Unconditional Election does not mean that there are no conditions to salvation and redemption - it means that ther are no conditions in man that merits his election unto salvation.

Face it brother, you're going to have to decide if its election unto salvation or salvation unto election. What is the order, and when do these things take place?

As long as you accept that God is omniscient you can not have Him learning about your decision to be born again and then chosing to save you. As Rippon said, there's no such thing as becoming elect. The alternative is Process Theology or Open Theology.
Think about it.

 

[Amy.G]

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[fn1] which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."


Something to think about. Christ is the true "elect". We are elect because we are in Christ. We are in Christ because we have put our faith in Him. Christ was chosen to be Savior before the foundation of the world. Christ was not plan B, but the plan for salvation before God created anything. When we put our faith in Christ, we become elect because He is elect. We will be resurrected because He was resurrected. We will receive the inheritance because He received the inheritance. Whatever Christ received, we will also because we are in Him, including being "elect".

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

My good doctor, When were you elected? Before or After you were born again? And regardless of when your election took place, how were you born again? By chance? By your own will power? Are you saying that you met the conditions of salvation? You caused your own birth? If you met the conditions of salavtion, then doesn't that mean that God is obligated to save you? So how does grace fit this scheme?

BTW just in case you're not clear on it - Unconditional Election does not mean that there are no conditions to salvation and redemption - it means that ther are no conditions in man that merits his election unto salvation.

Face it brother, you're going to have to decide if its election unto salvation or salvation unto election. What is the order, and when do these things take place?

As long as you accept that God is omniscient you can not have Him learning about your decision to be born again and then chosing to save you. As Rippon said, there's no such thing as becoming elect. The alternative is Process Theology or Open Theology.
Think about it.

Obviously you have not read any of the 13 chapters that I have put up.

All your questions and incorrect inferences are answered in the articles.

No one is elected to be saved. Election is vocation.

If you do not want to read all the articles, start here:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/ElectionDefined.htm

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[fn1] which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

1Pe 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."


Something to think about. Christ is the true "elect". We are elect because we are in Christ. We are in Christ because we have put our faith in Him. Christ was chosen to be Savior before the foundation of the world. Christ was not plan B, but the plan for salvation before God created anything. When we put our faith in Christ, we become elect because He is elect. We will be resurrected because He was resurrected. We will receive the inheritance because He received the inheritance. Whatever Christ received, we will also because we are in Him.

You are correct Amy.

Just as all of are dead in the first Adam, all who repent of sin, believe the gospel and, and call on the Lord Jesus to save them are alive "by grace through faith" in the Last Adam, Jesus.

Elect In Christ is what the chapter below is about:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Elect.htm

 

[J.D.]

Obviously you have not read any of the 13 chapters that I have put up.

All your questions and incorrect inferences are answered in the articles.

No one is elected to be saved. Election is vocation.

If you do not want to read all the articles, start here:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/ElectionDefined.htm

Okay, I read chapter 7 and I still don't understand. Tell me again how you get "chosen to a vocation" out of "chosen to salvation" in 2Thes2:13?

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Okay, I read chapter 7 and I still don't understand. Tell me again how you get "chosen to a vocation" out of "chosen to salvation" in 2Thes2:13?

Brother J.D.,

This is a simple text to explain. The salvation in II Thess. 2:13 is not referring to salvation from Hell. Salvation here is referring to salvation to glory (glorification). All believers are chosen to this salvation.

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . .” (II Thessalonians 2:13).

The context of II Thessalonians chapter two is the confrontation of the heresy that the resurrection (Rapture) had already taken place. This deceived the believers into thinking they had missed the rapture and the persecution they were suffering was part of God’s judgment upon the Christ rejecting nations of the world. Paul is reassuring them that this is not the case. This is why verse 14 is important:

"Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The statements of Paul in II Thessalonians are an extension of his previous epistle to the Thessalonians regarding this same subject.

“6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God–ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (I Thessalonians 1:6-10).

II Thess. 2:13-14 is similar to what Paul taught in Romans[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] 8:26-30.

See this Chapter:
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Ordo.htm

God bless!

 

[J.D.]

From chapter 3:

Monergism teaches that the regeneration of an individual must precede salvation because God must give life to those “dead in trespasses and sin” in order for them to be able to believe. If Monergism is correct and regeneration cannot actually take place until after the death, burial, resurrection, glorification of Christ and, the coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, no Old Testament believer could be saved because they could not be regenerated so as to be enabled to believe (regeneration before faith and effecting faith).

That underlined part ain't right my friend. Take it back please.

 

[J.D.]

Chapter 3 again:

Therefore, no believer prior to Pentecost could have been actually regenerated. Therefore, no one prior to Pentecost could have been regenerated in order to believe (Monergism).

Genesis 41:38 (KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Exodus 31:3 (KJV) And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Exodus 35:31 (KJV) And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Numbers 27:18 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

and so on........

 

[J.D.]

Brother J.D.,

This is a simple text to explain. The salvation in II Thess. 2:13 is not referring to salvation from Hell. Salvation here is referring to salvation to glory (glorification). All believers are chosen to this salvation.

“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . .” (II Thessalonians 2:13).

The context of II Thessalonians chapter two is the confrontation of the heresy that the resurrection (Rapture) had already taken place. This deceived the believers into thinking they had missed the rapture and the persecution they were suffering was part of God’s judgment upon the Christ rejecting nations of the world. Paul is reassuring them that this is not the case. This is why verse 14 is important:

"Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The statements of Paul in II Thessalonians are an extension of his previous epistle to the Thessalonians regarding this same subject.

“6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God–ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (I Thessalonians 1:6-10).

II Thess. 2:13-14 is similar to what Paul taught in Romans[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] 8:26-30.

See this Chapter:
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Ordo.htm

God bless!

I still don't see the relationship between being called to glory and being called to some specific service or other vocation. Isn't glorification an aspect of salvation?

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

I still don't see the relationship between being called to glory and being called to some specific service or other vocation. Isn't glorification an aspect of salvation?

It is like Romans 8:29-30. Lost people are not being predestined to salvation. Saved people are being predestined to glorification. All believers are chosen to this end. No one is elected to be saved. All the saved become elect "in Christ.

Read chapter 13:
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Dispensationalism/Understanding.htm

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Chapter 3 again:Genesis 41:38 (KJV) And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Exodus 31:3 (KJV) And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Exodus 35:31 (KJV) And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Numbers 27:18 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

and so on........

The filling of the Spirit is not the same as the indwelling of the Spirit. Clearly Christ was making a distinction between what the Spirit of God did in the Old Covenant and what He would do in the New Covenant when he said, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you {now in the Old Covenant), and shall be in you {after Pentecost in the New Covenant}" (John 14:17).


The verses you refer to above are referring to what the OT calls annointing with the Spirit. This annointing was the supernatrural enabling of individuals for vocational purposes, prophets, priests, kings, craftsmen, and etc.

 

[J.D.]

The filling of the Spirit is not the same as the indwelling of the Spirit. Clearly Christ was making a distinction between what the Spirit of God did in the Old Covenant and what He would do in the New Covenant when he said, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you {now in the Old Covenant), and shall be in you {after Pentecost in the New Covenant}" (John 14:17).


The verses you refer to above are referring to what the OT calls annointing with the Spirit. This annointing was the supernatrural enabling of individuals for vocational purposes, prophets, priests, kings, craftsmen, and etc.

In other words, they were enabled to work out their own salvation, for it is God who worked in them to do and to will of His good pleasure. They were regenerated by the spirit - perhaps not indwelled, in the New Testament sense, but the text does say that God's Spirit was in them, and I don't find it a stretch to say that they were regenerated. To say that they were faithful of their own meritorious qualities smacks of Pelagianism. That's true of any dispensation. Even Arminius and Wesley recognized that man can not repent without God's enablement.

 

[J.D.]

Dr. K, you said this in another thread:

The Word of God does not tell us why God chose Abraham to be the father of the Nation of Israel. We can make a conjecture that Abraham individually was "elect according to foreknowledge." Nonetheless, Abraham's election was vocational and not salvational. You are probably correct, Abraham would have gone to Hell without God's intervention, but isn't that true of all of us. That fact has really nothing to do with election.

You recognize yourself that without God intervening in Abraham's life, he would not have been saved. This makes election the necessary forerunner to salvation, for Abraham would have never been saved if he had not been first chosen. The fact is that God had to do nothing in order for Abraham to go to hell proves the doctrine of Total Depravity and Reprobation, and the fact that God's intervention saved Abraham proves the doctrine of Unconditional Election and Predestination.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

In other words, they were enabled to work out their own salvation, for it is God who worked in them to do and to will of His good pleasure. They were regenerated by the spirit - perhaps not indwelled, in the New Testament sense, but the text does say that God's Spirit was in them, and I don't find it a stretch to say that they were regenerated. To say that they were faithful of their own meritorious qualities smacks of Pelagianism. That's true of any dispensation. Even Arminius and Wesley recognized that man can not repent without God's enablement.

I did not say that there wasn't regeneration in the OT. I said regeneration is positional. After Pentecost, regeneration is actual.

Those filled with the Spirit (annointed) in the OT were positionally regenerated people (believers) enabled for the VOCATIONS God called them to do.

This is similar to the imputation of righteousness (Rom. 4:3; positional justification) in the OT and the impartation of righteousness (II Peter 1:4; actual justification) in the NT.

No one can come to repentance or faith unless God draws them (John 6:44). Scriptures tells us God is drawing ALL men to Himself (John 12:32) except for those He has given over to a reprobate mind (Rom. 1:28).

Faithfulness is a choice, although no one can be truly faithful apart from the Spirit of God's enablement.

Salvation is not dependent upon faithfulness. That is why God promises rewards for faithfulness.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Dr. K, you said this in another thread:
You recognize yourself that without God intervening in Abraham's life, he would not have been saved. This makes election the necessary forerunner to salvation, for Abraham would have never been saved if he had not been first chosen. The fact is that God had to do nothing in order for Abraham to go to hell proves the doctrine of Total Depravity and Reprobation, and the fact that God's intervention saved Abraham proves the doctrine of Unconditional Election and Predestination.

I did not say what you have quoted me as having said.

God must intervene in anyone's life before anyone can be saved. The point is that God is intervening in different ways in everyone's life (drawing all men).
This fact does not make election necessary to salvation. It makes salvation necessary to God's vocational election. God's vocation election is based upon God's foreknowledge of a salvation decision. Although God did vocationally elect some people according to foreknowledge of reprobation to be vessels of dishonor (Pharaoh and Judas for instance).

No one is born reprobate. Everyone is born "dead in trespasses and sin," but not reprobate. Reprobation is the result of continued unbelief (Rom. 1:19-32) and the rejection of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in His pre-salvation work (Heb. 6:1-8).

I would recommend you read chapters 14-17 in my series on Romans (they are short chapters of about three pages each).
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/RomansCommentary.htm

 

[skypair]

BTW just in case you're not clear on it - Unconditional Election does not mean that there are no conditions to salvation and redemption - it means that there are no conditions in man that merits his election unto salvation.

And "election" is unto salvation -- therefore, there are conditions to "election" to salvation and redemption and no conditions to salvation.

Face it brother, you're going to have to decide if its election unto salvation or salvation unto election. What is the order, and when do these things take place?

"Election" was FOREKNOWN "from before the foundation..." on account of foreknown/foreseen salvation. Sure believers were "elect" before the foundation..." God knew at that time that they would receive Christ.

As long as you accept that God is omniscient you can not have Him learning about your decision to be born again...

We've got another relevant thread going regarding this subject of "temporality" of God. God IS omniscient and knows everything ("supratemporal"). But it is Christ -- the One with Whom we have to do while on this earth -- who "learns" (Heb 5:8) about your decision. In fact, there are many things that He learns. He learned that He regretted creating mankind until He found Noah. Well, you can remember the other examples yourself, can't you?

So... once you choose Christ, you are in touch with God's "election" which He knew about but Christ didn't from the foundation of the world. Nevertheless, you had to be "in Christ" before you obtained your "election" -- not vice versa. Does that make sense?

and then chosing to save you.

No, and then choosing to "elect" you. Again you are confusing the two.

The alternative is Process Theology or Open Theology.
Think about it.

Actually, no. Neither side has considered that "open theology" might be true regarding Christ and Augustinian-Calvinist theology true regarding God the Father. And if this were the case, we would both have to alter our paradigms to expand our understanding of the trinity.

skypair

 

[J.D.]

I did not say what you have quoted me as having said.

God must intervene in anyone's life before anyone can be saved. The point is that God is intervening in different ways in everyone's life (drawing all men).
This fact does not make election necessary to salvation. It makes salvation necessary to God's vocational election. God's vocation election is based upon God's foreknowledge of a salvation decision. Although God did vocationally elect some people according to foreknowledge of reprobation to be vessels of dishonor (Pharaoh and Judas for instance).

No one is born reprobate. Everyone is born "dead in trespasses and sin," but not reprobate. Reprobation is the result of continued unbelief (Rom. 1:19-32) and the rejection of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in His pre-salvation work (Heb. 6:1-8).

I would recommend you read chapters 14-17 in my series on Romans (they are short chapters of about three pages each).
http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/RomansCommentary.htm

I cut and pasted your words into reply #76 above. Click on this:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1238553&postcount=22

God chose to reveal Himself to Abraham, a revelation without which Abraham would have went to Hell. That my friend, is election unto salvation, no matter how else you cut it.

I will read some more of your book when I get a chance. Thanks.