Dispensationalism and the Rapture, Pre-Darby.

[EdSutton]

I got one from Bruce, as well, as the one titled Dave MacPherson. I do not know that the two are connected, but found the 'trojan' suspicious, considering the timing. But, even though it may not be all that 'malevolent', there is undoubtedly 'spyware' involved, at best. Else why did I get e-mails back?
In His grace,
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by exscentric:
Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.

This may not be Darby's first mistake but it was his worst. Don't you believe that the revelation was closed with the Apostolic age? I hope you do. Most heretical cults claim some additional revelation; you know like the Book of Mormon. </font>[/QUOTE]Regardless of whether Darby's conclusions are right ot wrong, I believe that "the revelation was closed" with the completion of the Scriptures. What exactly was Scripture was not considerd "settled" for another 200 plus years. I happen to believe that what we have is, in fact, the Scriptures.

Certainly, I do not, therefore, "claim some additional revelation; you know like the Book of...(whatever)". However, I do at the same time claim more understanding in 2006

than I did in 1966, three years after I became a Christian. Let's be careful not to confuse the two.
In His grace,
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by MRCoon:
So now i'm confused...Did I miss the rapture? Was it announced on the History Channel? Because as a good Baptist I don't have cable...so would God still take me in the rapture (whether secret or not) if I didn't see the cable announcement?


Uh, sorry probably not a good showing to make my first post so sarcastic

Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by exscentric:
Is anyone else getting email relating to Dave MacPherson and his rhetoric on this subject?

I did, when I went there years
ago. That was back before I always had
two spam filters on my e-mail list.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Brother James:
A pre-trib rapture is clearly a new teaching introduced in the 19th century. The Irving/Mcdonald/Darby connection is hard to get around. Pre-trib teaching has been around since the beginning but a toungue speaking woman had to reveal the pre-trib rapture to us.

Mmmm..not quite:

http://www.lasthour.com/Millenarian.htm

 

[R. Charles Blair]

Bro. Ed Edwards - Just picking back up on this most interesting discussion - Are you familiar with Wm. Biederwolf, "The Millenium Bible", publ.
1924, reprinted Baker 1964? He was connected with Moody Institute. He takes every passage from Gen. 12 on that any commentators had used to write on the Second Coming up to that point, and gives the substance (often exact words) of each view. Campbell Morgan (Pre-mil) had a "partial rapture" based on conduct; while I don't see the exact term, the "pre-mil post-trib" is described from various expositors, as well as the post-mil and a-mil (his usual term is non-millenial). I don't immediately locate a mid-trib statement, but he quotes some pre-mils as saying that at least some believers will go into "the tribulaion the great one" for purification. Book is over 700 pages, designed for folks with lots of time.

I have lots of journals like "Our Hope" (pre-mil) and others; looking at June 1950, article by E. Schuyler English, ed., "Re-Thinking the Rapture" in which he mentions "one of our post-tribulationist brethren" and then says "we do not recall having read the writings of a single post-tribulationist who does not insist very definitely that the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit" (referring to II Ths. 1). Evidently there was a fair "crop" of "historical pre" folks around in 1950! (I've been preaching through I & II Thess., and picked this up out of the files for his view and the others he gave on "the restrainer" - he held that it is the Holy Spirit).

I appreciate the idea that books and articles referenced should be fully identified. A. C. Gabelein was first editor/publisher of "Our Hope", Frank E. Gabelein & English took it next. It was a monthly journal devoted to defending pre-trib pre-mil, and therefore mentioned the other views often. I also have several issues of "The Glory of Israel" from 1903-04, and quote briefly from one (pre-mil, A. C. Gabelein quoted in some):

[after quoting Rev. 1:7 & 6:12-17]: "Dear reader, are you prepared for these awful events which are as certain as that God cannot lie, and may come upon us so soon that we know not what a day may bring forth? Flee to the wounds of the Lord Jesus Christ for safety and you will not be ahamed before Him at His coming." No reference to any "rapture," but these awful events coming
"upon us so soon." A brief check of these pre-mil journals does not show any reference to any kind of "rapture" event (1903-04), just a time of troubles before the appearing of Christ.

Of course, like the "Ante-Nicenes," these folks weren't verbally inspired, but the question was about historical development of ideas, I believe.

Wishing you His best - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[Me4Him]

There are "THREE" appearences of Jesus, if ya want to call it that.


1. DAY OF CHRIST "BRIDEGROOM" coming to take his Bride the "church" the "lamb's mariage supper". (rapture)

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, (God) which made a marriage for his son, (Jesus)
Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom:
Re 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

2. DAY OF THE LORD "LORD OF LORDS", Jesus physically returns.

Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

3. DAY OF GOD "KING OF KINGS", GWT judgment.

Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,


I posted all this to explain "THIS".

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (rapture)

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Holy Ghost/comforter/Bridegroom/rapture))


8 AND THEN... (after day of christ) shall that Wicked be revealed, (for the trib period)

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Day of the lord)

The "Trib" is between the "day of Christ" and the "day of the lord".

And there are "literally" hundreds of other reasons why it's this way.

The rapture has been taught even since Paul revealed it.

 

[Me4Him]

Regarding your "trojan", Microsoft has a program for XP/spywares called "Defender", it's "FREE".

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

R. Charles Blair: //I have lots of journals like "Our Hope" (pre-mil) and others; looking at June 1950, article by E. Schuyler English, ed., "Re-Thinking the Rapture" in which he mentions "one of our post-tribulationist brethren" and then says "we do not recall having read the writings of a single post-tribulationist who does not insist very definitely that the restrainer is not the Holy Spirit" (referring to II Ths. 1).//

Yep. But I don't think we will be finding much 1950 stuff
that talks about the 'evil' Margret MacDonald.
My quotes are earlier in the Topic.

 

[Tom Butler]

Me4Him, hello,

Your previous post made some gratuitous statements, and offered some scriptures, but don't seem to prove anything.

The Day of Christ. You said this is the rapture.
The Day of the Lord. You said this is the post-tribulation second coming. Which I believe, by the way.

My problem is that I can find plenty of scriptures which are obviously (and not subject to any other interpretation) post-tribulational. I can also find scriptures referring to the Great Tribulation. But I have yet to find a clear, unequivocal, not subject to any other interpretation, verses which speak of a pre-trib rapture.
Actually, I hope there is one. But I just can't find the scripture for it.

Tom B.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Me4Him, hello,

Your previous post made some gratuitous statements, and offered some scriptures, but don't seem to prove anything.

The Day of Christ. You said this is the rapture.
The Day of the Lord. You said this is the post-tribulation second coming. Which I believe, by the way.

My problem is that I can find plenty of scriptures which are obviously (and not subject to any other interpretation) post-tribulational. I can also find scriptures referring to the Great Tribulation. But I have yet to find a clear, unequivocal, not subject to any other interpretation, verses which speak of a pre-trib rapture.
Actually, I hope there is one. But I just can't find the scripture for it.

Tom B.

Try this link:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

As I said, there are literally hundreds of other reasons, the most "obvious" is the fact that "leadership" by the "law and Prophet", which stopped with Jesus, and the "Holy Ghost", DO NOT function at the same time in the same time frame.

That is supported by the following verse.

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (at the same time)

Jesus=vine, Israel=figs, the Jews are blinded until the "fulness of the Gentiles" (rapture)

Israel goes back under the "L/P" system during the trib, Moses/Elijah (two witnesses) will preform many "signs and wonders" which Jews require to believe, but Jesus won't give the "signs" they want.

There's 8 charts on the link, you'll have to reading all 8 before the "picture" of events and the reasons will become clear.

 

[Tom Butler]

Forgive me, Me4Him, but I still can't seem to find what I'm looking for. I looked at all your charts, read all the scripture verses, and did not find one single clear, unequivocal verse which tells of a pre-trib rapture.

You simply state that the fulness of the Gentiles is the rapture. Sorry, but it's not at all clear that that is the case.

You identify the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah, but that is subject to other interpretation, one of which is that they are symbolic.

You previously identified the Restrainer (one who letteth in II Thess) as the Holy Spirit. Sorry, not uequivocal.

I've had I Thess 4:13-17 cited as the proof text. Doesn't say when it is.

I've had "two in the bed, one taken, the other left." But couldn't the one taken be taken for judgement? See, open to another interpretation.

Maybe I'm asking too much. Maybe there really isn't such a clear statement in the Bible. Seems that those who hold to pre-trib have to take a bunch of passages run them through the dispy filter and then just try to make every proof-text verse fit. It would just be a lot easier to buy it if the Scriptures were clearer.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Forgive me, Me4Him, but I still can't seem to find what I'm looking for. I looked at all your charts, read all the scripture verses, and did not find one single clear, unequivocal verse which tells of a pre-trib rapture.

You simply state that the fulness of the Gentiles is the rapture. Sorry, but it's not at all clear that that is the case.

You identify the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah, but that is subject to other interpretation, one of which is that they are symbolic.

You previously identified the Restrainer (one who letteth in II Thess) as the Holy Spirit. Sorry, not uequivocal.

I've had I Thess 4:13-17 cited as the proof text. Doesn't say when it is.

I've had "two in the bed, one taken, the other left." But couldn't the one taken be taken for judgement? See, open to another interpretation.

Maybe I'm asking too much. Maybe there really isn't such a clear statement in the Bible. Seems that those who hold to pre-trib have to take a bunch of passages run them through the dispy filter and then just try to make every proof-text verse fit. It would just be a lot easier to buy it if the Scriptures were clearer.

Tom, I think you're like many, the Bible is "puzzle" of verses which you don't know how to assemble in order to "See" the "picture", and in trying to assemble it "your self", you try to put pieces where they don't belong, and that just adds to the confusion.

There's only "ONE WAY" I know to get all the pieces in the correct place, that is to "forget" everything you know, or think you know, confess to God that you're an "IDIOT" and "IF" he wants you to know "anything", "HE"LL HAVE TO SHOW YOU".

"Humble as a Child", is the way it's described in the bible, and a child will believe "Anything" you tell them, even "reincarnation".

Like a puzzle, certain pieces must be in place before the next will fit, so must certain things must be learned before you can understand where/how the next piece fits.

The absents of the church during the trib is throughout the scriptures, but most don't "see it",

Jesus, as the "PASSOVER LAMB" only protected the "FIRSTBORN" from death, the Church is the "Firstborn" or "Firstfruit",

so we "Literally", "PASSOVER" the trib when people will physically die to be saved.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

1Jo 2:27 But the "anointing" (HG) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I hope you don't think I'm "smart enough" to figure out all those "charts", myself.

I'm one of the "FOOLISH" God called to confound the "WISE".

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
[qb]
I'm one of the "FOOLISH" God called to confound the "WISE".

Tee hee!

you are right on, Brother Me4Him

Tom Butler: //Forgive me, Me4Him, but I still can't seem to find what
I'm looking for. I looked at all your charts, read all the scripture
verses, and did not find one single clear, unequivocal verse
which tells of a pre-trib rapture.//

Rom 9:20-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
Nay but O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power ouer the clay, of the same lumpe,
to make one vessell vnto honour, and another vnto dishonour?

Nothing personal, I've done it myself.
It is called DESIGN CRITIQUE.
God has to present clearly in the Bible
the pre-tribualtin rapture.
Sorry, there is no 'verse' that says:

Opinions 13:18 (EIEIO = Ed's Itchy Ears International Only)

At the end of the Time of the Gentiles will Jesus
come at the pretribulation rapture to gather His church,
His Bride, His Body unto himself.

And there will never be a verse that says it.
But you have two different persons who in greate detail
show BY A PREPONDANCE OF SCRIPTURE: the pretribulation rapture.

BTW, Bro. Me4Him use different definitions of
'rapture' and 'resurrection', but come up with the
same order of events.

Tom Butler: //You simply state that the fulness of the Gentiles is the rapture. Sorry, but it's not at all clear that that is the case.//

Close #1

Tom Butler: //You identify the two witnesses as Moses and Elijah, but that is subject to other interpretation, one of which is that they are symbolic.//

Close #2

Tom Butler: //You previously identified the Restrainer (one who letteth in II Thess) as the Holy Spirit. Sorry, not uequivocal.//

Close #3

Tom Butler: //I've had I Thess 4:13-17 cited as the proof text. Doesn't say when it is.//

Close #4

Tom Butler: //I've had "two in the bed, one taken, the other left." But couldn't the one taken be taken for judgement? See, open to another interpretation.//

Close #5

How many 'close' does it take to have a hit?

 

[Tom Butler]

Well Me4Him, I agree that the best thing would be to throw out all the systems through which we filter the end-time passages in the Bible. I suppose I have to ask myself, if I'd never heard of a pre-trib rapture, or any other view, would I find it in the Bible? It's really frustrating, because I just can't dump everything I've been exposed to, and act like my mind is empty.

The other frustrating thing is that the Tribulation passages are there for the reading; the Second Coming Passages are clear. The millenium seems to be a real 1,000 years, but the one-verse mention of it in the Revelation leaves a lot of questions unanswered. So why can't the pre-trib proof texts be just as clear? Why do we have to put together the puzzle pieces? It just doesn't make sense. I really can't see why it doesn't require spiritual discernment to see the Tribulation and the Second Coming, but the Pre-Trib Rapture does. Ah well, when it comes to eschatology, the best I can say is, this is where I am today. I may not be there tomorrow.


Tom

 

[Ed Edwards]

1Co 13:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
And now abideth faith, hope, charitie, these three,
but the greatest of these is charitie.

If faith and hope were the same thing, why would both
be mentioned? Maybe it is the same thing, but doubly
important, but the verse says that 'love' is
the 'greatest'. Hope and Faith are different.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the euidence of things not seen.

I like to say that faith is hope with
it's clothes on; hope is naked faith.

Faith comes directly and plainly from the scripture;
Hope may come by interpolation

Faith is knowing what God can do;
Hope is caring what God will do.

Christ is the center of our Faith;
What Christ will do for me personally is
the center of my Hope.

I faith that Christ will come after the Tribulation
and gather up any remaing saints and those who died
before the Beast from the Sea (AKA: Antichrist);
I hope Jesus comes to get me soon in the Pretribulation
Rapture/resurrection.

 

[Tom Butler]

Bro. Ed,

My faith is strong and my hope is unshaken about the Tributlation and the Second Coming. It is so because I have clear Scripture on them. I would prefer to base my faith in a pre-trib rapture on clear Scripture, rather than to have to divine a mysterious secret wrung out of disconnected verses here and there.

You and Me4Him have tried hard to defend your views to me and have done it well. In my case, up to this point, close but no cigar.

Tom B.

 

[R. Charles Blair]

For Me4Him - One question, in light of one of your comments. Was any individual indwelt/filled by the Holy Spirit before Acts 2? If so, what would that do to the idea that "Law and Prophets" and "Holy Ghost" leadership do not function at the same time? Have a great forever - Charles - Ro. 8:28

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by R. Charles Blair:
For Me4Him - One question, in light of one of your comments. Was any individual indwelt/filled by the Holy Spirit before Acts 2? If so, what would that do to the idea that "Law and Prophets" and "Holy Ghost" leadership do not function at the same time? Have a great forever - Charles - Ro. 8:28

"And He said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
And the Spirit entered into me when He spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard Him that spake unto me." Ez. 2:1-2