Dispensationalism - Sine Qua Non 1 of 3, a Israel and Church Distinction

[Ransom]

I do not discuss Scripture with Amills since
there is no hope of coming to an agreement.

You must spend a lot of time playing solitaire.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Mel Miller,

That is not true.

I do LOOKING FORWARD Jesus is coming again, and he shall reigning over all nations from New Jerusalem, and we shall reigning with Christ on new earth forever and ever! Both Gentiles and Jews believers shall reigning with Christ on new earth. Unbelievers shall not inherit the kingdom of God - 1 Cor. 15:50. All unbelievers shall be thrown away into the lake of fire immediately follow the judgement day at Christ's coming - Matt. 25:31-46.

Israel is New Jerusalem
Church is New Jerusalem

Simple. No complex.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller, DeafPosttrib - your posts are addressed herein
(or on the next post)

Mel Miller: //I do not discuss Scripture with Amills since
there is no hope of coming to an agreement.//

By contrast I 'debate' with Amills, for it allows me to illustrate
the GREAT HOPE in the pretribulation rapture for all members of
today's Church (ones called out by Jesus). Also it frequently shows
the futility of spiritualizing too much prophecy.

Mel Miller: //DeafPosttrib does not believe in a future
reign of Christ over the nations of earth with the Jews fulfilling
the mission ... // of the Church.

You have him pegged. Fortunately, eschatological differences are
not salvation issues. I'm sure not going to break fellowship with
someone with a slightly different view than men.

Mel Miller: // ... the number of
non-Christians is accelerating at a far faster rate than the number of Christians.//

I don't think this statement is correct.

In 1800 only 1/4 of the world had the name 'Christian' applied;
In 2000 1/3 of the world had the name 'Christian' applied.

DeafPosttrib: //Calvary already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles
become one in Christ's body.
Simple we are God's family.//

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!
However, you statement is not correct for the time before
the Resurrection of Jesus; your statement is not correct for
the time after the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the
mostly Gentile Church (ones called out by Christ). Nor is your
fact likely to save all the Jews as predicted by Paul
in Romans 11:24-25a "all Israel shall be saved"
Yes, in this era there are Messanic Jews, those Jews who beleive that
Jesus, Son of Joseph, is their promised Messiah. They will be
resurrected with the mostly Gentile Church Age elect saints at the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

In fact, the whol Tribulation Period is our Lord's plan to
save 'all Israel'. When at mid-tribulation the antichrist enters
the restored & 3rd Temple on Temple Mount, he will claim to be God,
which no man can do. Then millions of Israeli will believe that JEsus
is their hopped for Messiah (they will be kept through the second half
of the Tribulation Period, when God pours out His Wrath undiluted
/like in the first half/ upon unrepentant mankind.)

DeafPosttrib: //Israel means God's people.
Church means God's people.//

Amen, Brother - sometimes two different groups, sometimes one group.
Not always one group. For before the Resurrection of Jesus, there
were two groups: Israel and Gentiles. In Christ, and in this
Time of the Gentiles (Church Age) the two bodies are one IN CHRIST ONLY.
OUtside of Jesus, they are still two people: the mostly gentile Church
elect saints and the Jewish Israei elect saints.

DeafPosttrib: //There is no difference between 'Israel' & 'Church',
both are same meaning.//

Sorry, you contradict yourself when you said:
//Israel means God's people.
Church means God's people.//

God has two churches:

1. Jewish Israei elect saints
2. Church Age born-again, redeemed, snatched-from-the-fire,
mostly gentile elect saints

DeafPosttrib: //Dispensationalism teaches the distinction of Israel and Church is unbiblical. /

Your statement has two distinct and contradictory meanings.

If you mean: Dispensationalism teaches that 'the distinction of Israel and Church
is unbiblical'; then you are incorrect. Dispensationalism teaches
that it is biblical that Israel and the Church are distinct.

If you mean: Dispensationalism's teachING: 'the distinction of Israel and Church"
is AN unbiblical Teaching; you are right about 'dispensationalism' but
wrong about it being unbiblical.

DeafPosttrib: //Ephesians chapter 2 explains about Calvary more clear.
It is conflict with dispensationalism doctrine.//

Ephesians e is clearly dispensational in nature; Ephesisans 2 is
one of the proof-texts of dispensatinalism along with Romans 11.

DeafPosttrib: //There is nothing special comparing with Church and Israel
in the end times. God only have one family.//

I don't think we should limit God to one and only one family
just as I don't think that we should limit God to one and only one
Bible (usually said to be the KJV).

DeafPosttrib: //There is not a single verse find anywhere in the New Testament saying
that Jews shall possess their own land during millennial kingdom.
Neither anywhere in N.T. saying that modern Jerusalem shall be
the world's capitol during millennial kingdom.//

Perchance, there is no verse that says exactly /word for word/ what you
said. But your statement is clearly supported by the Bible.
Sure there is no verse connecting:

1. Revelatin 20: a 1,000 years in which the Church Age
saints and the killed-in-the-Trbulatin saints are reigning with
Jesus.

2. The Israeli world being ruled from Jerusalem - i can't recall
a verse in the NT but it is predicted by Isaiah of the OT
whom Jesus quoted in the NT. Perchance one believes that only the
part of Isaiah that Jesus quoted is correct? I hope not.

3. The Jews shall possess their own land in a Messanic Kingdom
- that two is clearer many times in the OT. Has it happened yet?
Did God forget His promise to Israel to save a bunch of worthless
& sinful gentiles (Hebrew 'goy') - of course not.

It only makes sense to assume that the three are one and the
same Millennial Messanic Kingdom. Such an assumption contradicts
nothing in the Bible. Caveat: the phrase 'Millennial Messanic
Kingdom' is nowhere to be found in the Bible. But the idea of
it comes DIRECT FROM SCRIPTURE.

Ephesians 2 (remember that chapter?)
BTW, Epehsians 3:2 that follows right after Epehesians 2
even has the world 'dispensation' in many translations.
Epesians 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding
riches of his greace in his kindness toward us
through Christ Jesus.[/b]

AGES TO COME? Where are the 'ages to come' for the RETURN OF
JESUS ENDS THE WORLD theory which negates Revelation 20?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:


Dispensationalism teaches the distinction of Israel and Church is unbiblical.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Answer this question.

"Can a Gentile be an enemy of the Gospel and still have any hope of being saved"???

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

1Pe 2:9 But ye (Gentiles) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

10 Which in time past were not a (chosen) people, but are now the (chosen) people of God: (Gentiles)

When God chose the literal nation of Israel, did they have a choice in the matter, NO.

Do the "Gentile Nations" have a choice, YES, "Whosoever will".

This difference between Israel/church is why National Israel can be an enemy of the Gospel and still have a hope of being saved but the Gentiles nations don't have the same promise, but all will come through "FAITH", Jew/Gentile.

The Law and prophet system of leadership stop with Jesus's (HG) leadership, in effect blinding Israel who won't believe by "Faith" (HG) and without the "signs and wonders" of the L/P system,

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached,

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Leadership by both "L/P" and "HG" do not function at the same time in the same time frame, this is one of the main reasons for the "pre trib rapture" of the "HG/church".

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (same time)

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only HE (HG) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (rapture)

8 AND THEN... shall that Wicked be revealed,

Israel will go back under the "L/P" system during the trib, Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah, and the signs and wonders will return.

The same problem Israel had in seeing the God of the OT change into the God of the NT (Jesus) the church has in seeing the God of the NT change back into the God of the OT, it's a problem with understanding the "Trinity", on both sides.




Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

 

[rjprince]

interesting discussion, working on a post, just not had time to finish. Hope to in a few days...

 

[Benjamin]

Bump :laugh: :wavey:

 

[rjprince]

Bump :laugh: :wavey:

Wow! Well over a year and this one was still here somewhere! Well, as mentioned on another thread, I have been off the board for a while and just getting back on. Last year and a half has been pretty tough with all that happened with Matthew's illness and homegoing. Last few days been tough again. Next week will be tough as my oldest is getting married. Times like that make Matthew's absence that more evident and painful.

Anyhow, will get back to this one in a few days, deo volente.

Ben, thanks for bumping this back to the front of the line!

 

[Benjamin]

Ray,

Yes, it’s been a while, thought you might be surprised to see it. I have thought about and prayed for you many times since. I also reflected about when this tread ended which also includes sad memories for me of a time shortly after my Dad’s death; maybe should have let this go. Glad to see you back though and sorry if I stirred up painful memories with it during already tough times.

Congratulations on the marriage of your oldest and may these new family memories build some new joyful times in your heart.

Blessings,

Ben

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I am a dispensationalist myself but like all good believers I don't prescribe to every single teaching of any one man or system.

Israel and the Church are distinctive.

I am interested in this statement by Ryrie:

"A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct. This is stated in different ways by both friends and foes of dispensationalism. Fuller says that ‘the basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity"

Does he explain what he means about maintaining their distinction throughout eternity? There is indeed reference in the Scriptures to events in eternity future connected to events during human history so I do understand that there is a real impact now on eternity so I am interested in what Ryrie said about this specific distinction being sustained throughout eternity.

Regarding Chafer, whose capacity for theological classification is tenacious and admirable, I am not sure I necessarily agree with what I read but I may not appreciate it since I don't have the entire text, hence I may misunderstand:

"The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity"

Here I think, (again I don't have the text so I could be responding without enough information) when he says the earthy purpose (people and objectives) involved Judaism, though it is true, don't feel satisfied that such an exclusive statement represents the "earthly purpose" as a whole. What I mean is this.

Before Israel was an age of Gentiles that includes the Patriarchal Priesthood and the Melchizedek Priesthood and of course following that is the Age of Israel which is not now present during the Church Age. These each have their purposes, so is Chafer connecting them ultimately to Israel?

I am not necessarily debating the rightness of wrongness of it but interested in how this becomes the superior in God's earthly purpose, making all other ages subordinate.

On the other hand where Chafer says:

Over against this, the partial dispensationalist, though dimly observing a few obvious distinctions, bases his interpretation on the supposition that God is doing but one thing, namely, the general separation of the good from the bad, and, in spite of all the confusion this limited theory creates, contends that the earthly people merge into the heavenly people; that the earthly program must be given a spiritual interpretation or disregarded altogether.

I agree without need for clarification because I understand precisely what he is saying. I find it interesting but highly truthful he uses the term "partial dispensationalist" to describe those who understand "a few obvious distinctions". Because even the most ardent Covenantalist accepts certain distinctions in their theology. I am sure a few would through off such a label and that is their prerogative.

So I do say Israel and the Church are distinct. Though I may not hold to the specific charts and nomenclature regarding dispensationalism as do Ryrie or Chafer or necessarily hold to all of their teachings, I certainly identify strongly with their theological distinctions regarding the uniqueness of Israel and the Church.

 

[thomas15]

I could hardly agree with Alex more. The biggest problem with the A-mil arguement (that the Church is the new literal Isreal and that it becomes the dominant religious force on earth just before Christ returns) is that the Bible teaches that just the opposite regarding the condition of man just prior to the second coming.

 

[skypair]

Grasshopper,

Jer 31 clearly says that the NC is between God and the houses of Israel and Judah, the same as the Mosaic Covenant referenced in the same passage. When it is in effect, God says, “I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know Me”.

The NC to Israel will be PHYSICALLY fulfilled -- the Spirit reviving their bodies literally -- just like every other covenant with them. The NC with the church is being SPIRITUALLY fulfilled.

skypair

 

[skypair]

We are ministers to a new covenant that has not gone into effect yet?

Co 3:6 who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.

Like most prophecies regarding Israel, when they rejected Christ, the Gentiles received their partial fulfilment thereof. The difference, for instance, in the operation of the NC is that our bodies aren't totally reborn of the Spirit -- OT Israel's bodies will be resurrected full of the Spirit. They will be like Christ at His birth for HE said, "I am the resurrection." That is to say, this is what Israel will be like in their resurrection.

We are resurrected in the body we dwell in. Can you see the difference?

But when we switch to eschatology all of the sudden dispies are quick to point out that the NC really isn’t here yet.

Right. The COMPLETE fulfillment of the NC is in the resurrection of OT Israel.

So why in the Millennium do dispies teach a return to animal sacrifices and all the other OC rituals?

Most dispies explain them as "remembrances" like our Eucharist. But recall, if any nations doesn't participate, they will not receive rain. That is similar to Christians now who are "sick and may sleep" on account of taking communion unworthily.

It seems to me it is ones eschatology biases that would lead one to believe the NC is not in effect and clearly not scripture.

Confusing, eh? Since many of us don't have a good "handle" on the meaning, it can appear to be contradictory when it is not.

The law of non-contradiction (which appears to be what you assert) says that contradictory statements can't be said to be true of the same thing is the same way. Obviously then, NC is true of 2 eras but not in the say way, right?

So have I explained it in a non-contradictory enough manner for you?

skypair

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I'm back.

Read Ephesioans chapter 2 is not difficult. It is all about Calvary. During Old Testament time, Gentiles were strangers, aliens, separated from the commonwealth of Israel. When Christ came to earth. He tores the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, then He reconciled both became ONE unity together in the body of Christ. Therefore, now Gentiles are joined with Jews and are part of the commonwealth of Israel, and no longer strangers anymore. Ephesians chapter chapter 2 apply to today. NOW, Gentiles and Jews are reconciled together into one. We are the commonwealth of Israel. Commonwealth means citizenship. For example, I was born in Detroit, Michigan in United States. I am citizenship of United of America. I am belong to U.S. Same with us as Gentiles we are NOW belong to Christ. Also, we are belong to the seed of Arabram, which is in Christ.

So, we are Israel - spiritual nation - 1 Peter 2:9.

Church does NOT 'replaced' Israel. Israel means God's people. Church means means God's people.

During Old Testament time, Israel was deal as physical nation. These shadows like animal offerings, tabernacle, temple of O.T. all were the type of Christ. All of these were physical. Now, Christ made the new covenant with many people, not just for Jews only, also, included Gentiles. Christ made a new covenant with the world by through his blood of Calvary. We are not under the old covenant anymore. We are NOW under the new covenant.

So, we do not need high priests, animal offerings, tabernacle, building of temple, physical nation. Jesus Christ is the answer what we need. Christ fulfilled O.T. and he ended the old covenant by Calvary, he already made a new covenant by through his blood. Now, We are the temple of God, because, Christ is the temple. Christ is the sacrifice. Christ is the covenant. Christ is Israel.

God only have ONE family, both Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Jesus Christ only. They are belong to the seed of Abraham.

Now, there is no longer divided between Gentiles and Jews. Christ already reconciled both together became ONE 2,000 years ago, not wait till second coming. Christ already torn down the wall between Jews and Gentiles, both are already reconciled together. So, therefore, we are NOW member of Israel. Church is Israel, Israel is Church. Simple and plain.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[rjprince]

I'm back.

Me TOO! Great to see/hear/read you! Wondered if you were still around brother! Look forward to some lively swordplay/practice! (Heb 4:12) Will be a very busy week for me though, my daughter is getting married this weekend!

Read Ephesioans chapter 2 is not difficult. It is all about Calvary. During Old Testament time, Gentiles were strangers, aliens, separated from the commonwealth of Israel. When Christ came to earth. He tores the wall down between Jews and Gentiles, then He reconciled both became ONE unity together in the body of Christ. Therefore, now Gentiles are joined with Jews and are part of the...

I was with you till here! What should have followed is the word "CHURCH", not "Israel". We are reconciled into one body, Scripture calls this "The Church" NOT the "commonwealth of Israel". In the OT the only way to be part of the family of God was to become a Jew, i.e. Ruth. With the end of the law and the beginning of the Church, the only way to become part of the family of God is to become a "believer". Becoming an Israelite won’t do you any good right now. They are mostly blinded, except for the ones who become believers and part of the church. But this blindness is only temporary as God will, when the "fullness of the Gentiles" has come in, save "all Israel". Try to read Rom 11:25-32 with the view that Israel = the Church – NONSENSE!

...no longer strangers anymore. Ephesians chapter chapter 2 apply to today. NOW, Gentiles and Jews are reconciled together into one...

Yes, reconciled together into "the church, which is His body" (Eph 1:22-23), not the same body Israel, but "one new man" (2:15). Believing Gentiles and believing Jews are joined together into one body now, a new "fold" (John 10:16), but this does not do away with God’s covenant promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Israel as they were about to enter the promised land, or David. God has much to fulfill in regard to Israel that has not yet been fulfilled. The part that has been fulfilled has been fulfilled in a literal manner. Why would we now assume that the part that remains will be fulfilled in a "spiritual" non-literal manner?

We are the commonwealth of Israel. Commonwealth means citizenship. For example, I was born in Detroit, Michigan in United States. I am citizenship of United of America. I am belong to U.S. Same with us as Gentiles we are NOW belong to Christ. Also, we are belong to the seed of Arabram, which is in Christ.

You were born in Detroit. You are a Gentile. You are not a citizen of Israel. You may be the spiritual seed of Abraham just like Ishmael is the physical seed of Abraham but you are no more a PARTY to the promises of the Abrahamic covenant than the physical descendants through Ishmael. The covenant promises are through Isaac and Jacob/Israel. NOWHERE ARE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST SAID TO BE THE SEED OF ISRAEL! (At least nowhere in the Bible, I know you can read it here on some posts and in the writings of many covenant theologians.)

So, we are Israel - spiritual nation - 1 Peter 2:9.

Here is what it says...

2Pet 2:9-10 – 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Please notice what it does not say...

It does not say...

... Israel means God's people. Church means God's people.

It does not say that the church is Israel. Not there, not anywhere!

During Old Testament time, Israel was deal as physical nation. These shadows like animal offerings, tabernacle, temple of O.T. all were the type of Christ. All of these were physical.

OK. I am with you again, till you get to here....

Now, Christ made the new covenant with many people, not just for Jews only, also, included Gentiles. Christ made a new covenant with the world by through his blood of Calvary. We are not under the old covenant anymore. We are NOW under the new covenant.

Show me where the NC is with ANYONE but the house of Israel and the house of Judah. I can show you where it is plainly said to be with Israel and Judah, but not the Gentiles, OR the Church!

Jer 31:31-36
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

First, notice that it plainly says, "with the house of Israel... and Judah..." Not much room for Gentiles to be included there...

Second, notice that the covenant which they brake was the one made when He brought them out of Egypt. Who did God bring out of Egypt? With whom did God establish the Mosaic covenant? To whom did Messiah come? Israel. (Rom 9:4-5; John 1:11)

Third, notice how long God’s promises to NATIONAL Israel will last... As long as there is a sun, moon, stars, sea, and tides. Last time I checked, they were still there. Guess that means that God has not forgotten His promises to ethnic Israel.

So, we do not need high priests, animal offerings, tabernacle, building of temple, physical nation. Jesus Christ is the answer what we need. Christ fulfilled O.T. and he ended the old covenant by Calvary, he already made a new covenant by through his blood. Now, We are the temple of God, because, Christ is the temple. Christ is the sacrifice. Christ is the covenant.

You were doing SO GOOD, till this...

Christ is Israel.

You lost me there. Do you have ANY kind of a reference to try to twist on top of that one?

God only have ONE family, both Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Jesus Christ only. They are belong to the seed of Abraham.

One active family, now. The Church, the SPIRITUAL seed of Abraham by faith. The church is not the ethic seed of Abraham and THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SPIRITUAL SEED OF ISRAEL OR DAVID! His promises to Israel, Judah, and David are not to the Church, although the church will receive some of the blessings of His fulfillment of these promises.

Now, there is no longer divided between Gentiles and Jews. Christ already reconciled both together became ONE 2,000 years ago, not wait till second coming. Christ already torn down the wall between Jews and Gentiles, both are already reconciled together.

We are together on this. I fully agree with this. The BIBLE SAYS THIS! Jews and Gentiles in one body, THE CHURCH!

So, therefore, we are NOW member of Israel. Church is Israel, Israel is Church. Simple and plain.

You have made a LEAP OF GUESS here! Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, therefore this cannot be a leap of faith! THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THIS!!!

It does not say it simple, it does not say it plain. It does not say it in the rain!
(Sorry, could not help myself with that. Images of Green Eggs and Ham just filled my head without restraint)

The Bible never declares that Gentile believers are in ANY WAY the seed of Israel. It is not there!


BROTHER! I have missed you! It is good for brethren to challenge each other to examine their beliefs and the precise statement of them! I fully believe that God has given us to each other to cause us to sharpen our understanding and statement of His truth! May HE be honored in our discussion. Please let me say now, that IF the intensity of my debating ever offends you, I am deeply sorry. I only seek truth. The fact of the matter is that I do not care if it is pre-trib, post-trib, pre-mil, post-mil, or even a-mil -- I only want to make sure that I line up soundly and solidly with the Word of God, where ever that may be. When all the dust settles and when the rhetoric has died, I want to be standing firmly on THE BOOK. I believe you do, too. May we both be willing to understand well the other side. May we both be willing to make whatever adjustments are needed to bring our beliefs and the statement of them, fully into line with the written Word, and the Living Word!

God Bless you as well, my dear brother in Christ!

 

[rjprince]

Benjamin,

Thank you for your prayers for us. You did not stir up any memories, at least not negative ones. We are grateful for the memories of dear friends that prayed much for us in Matthew's sickness and homegoing. There are many good memories in the midst of our sadness. The sadness is always there. It will be there till we see HIM for the first time, and till we see him (Matthew) again.

Sorry to learn of the passing of your Father. It is never easy to bury loved ones, a big part of ourselves always goes into the ground with them.

Glad to hear that you have thought much about this, may HIS Word ever be the constant meditation of our hearts!


AND THANK YOU for bumping this back closer to the top! Some good discussion going to take place I think! See my closing comments in post to DeafPostTrib...

 

[rjprince]

AlexQ,

Personally, I feel that some of the D's have tried to be more specific than the Word is regarding the relationship between Israel and the Chruch in the MK and in eternity. I think I understand some of the objections of CT to the "Two Peoples of God" split in the MK and eternity.

I am not sure how to define, at least not clearly, the distinction between Israel and the Church after the Trib. I am very willing to concede that sometimes some Ds have overstated their case and gone beyond what Scripture actually says. It is difficult to not speculate about the relationship between Israel and the Church in the future, but when we do make such speculation, we should clearly state that it is indeed speculation and then give the Biblical reasons that may support our ideas. Speculation and ideas are all that it is, unless there is a definitive statement in the Word. Some Dispensationalists are properly called to task for this speculation that has not been so identified. But, on the other hand, Ds are not alone in stating theological propositions with less than clear and overwhelming Biblical support.

 

[rjprince]

The NC to Israel will be PHYSICALLY fulfilled -- the Spirit reviving their bodies literally -- just like every other covenant with them. The NC with the church is being SPIRITUALLY fulfilled.

skypair

Certainly you do not mean to suggest that the NC with Israel is not a SPIRITUAL covenant?

BTW, disagree that the NC is fulfilled spiritually in the the church. The church is reaping spiritual blessing, and other kinds as well, as a result of the death and shed blood of the Lord Jesus that ratified the NC, but the church is NOT a PARTY of the New Covenant.

 

[Benjamin]

I'm back.

Hey DPT,

Good to see you! I wondered if you would catch this. I may not have a lot of time to join in after bringing this back up, but will be looking forward to see where things are going.

Church does NOT 'replaced' Israel. Israel means God's people. Church means means God's people.

:thumbs:

 

[Benjamin]

AND THANK YOU for bumping this back closer to the top! Some good discussion going to take place I think!

Well…I saw you up into that Dispy mode again and thought it better to head off and jump passed a lot of the circular Darbyism debate before it began. (fun as that may be a times ) …and remembered this tread as more getting down to the business of the root of the problems with dispensationalism. :smilewinkgrin:

In the OT the only way to be part of the family of God was to become a Jew, i.e. Ruth. With the end of the law and the beginning of the Church, the only way to become part of the family of God is to become a "believer". Becoming an Israelite won’t do you any good right now.

So one can become a pedigreed seed??? The dispensationalist problem begins here; by even using the secular ethnic application of a genetic “Jew” to mean Israel. The whole dispy scheme falls apart by their perceived meaning of Israel which actually means “the faithful”, it is unbiblical to try to force fit the definition of “Israel” to be one of blood; I may be wrong but I think the Dispies must spiritualize the meaning of “rightly dividing” to an obsession of chopping it to pieces, which leads away from the proper meaning of making a straight clean cut into the Word and examining it as a whole.

You were born in Detroit. You are a Gentile. You are not a citizen of Israel. You may be the spiritual seed of Abraham just like Ishmael is the physical seed of Abraham but you are no more a PARTY to the promises of the Abrahamic covenant than the physical descendants through Ishmael. The covenant promises are through Isaac and Jacob/Israel. NOWHERE ARE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST SAID TO BE THE SEED OF ISRAEL! (At least nowhere in the Bible, I know you can read it here on some posts and in the writings of many covenant theologians.)

The promise (AC) was made to Abraham and his “seeds” and is the same promise that Jacob inherited, and only one way to get there, and it ain’t blood!:

(Heb 11:9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

A promise “by faith”; Those of faith are the one Body of Christ/the Church/Israel. All that were ever saved were saved by faith. While there may be a secular ethnic application, this does not hold to the saints before Abraham, those who joined the tribes, or even those who were made to leave it. I think you need to abandon the term “Jew” meaning Israel by pedigree. The redemptive context, “Israel” refers to the faithful throughout historical Biblical context. John the Baptist straightened out those who rebel but claim the name as they were rebuffed as pretenders:

(Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

(Mat 3:10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

One active family, now. The Church, the SPIRITUAL seed of Abraham by faith. The church is not the ethic seed of Abraham and THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SPIRITUAL SEED OF ISRAEL OR DAVID! His promises to Israel, Judah, and David are not to the Church, although the church will receive some of the blessings of His fulfillment of these promises.

Paul made it clear who “ALL the saved” were, they are the “seeds of Abraham” and that has always been by faith, this is his term! If one identifies every logical “relationship” (OT or NT) he will see that they all came of faith; then Paul’s term for the “seeds of Abraham” removes any doubt of the meaning of “seeds”. Don’t believe me, follow Paul’s logic to see “his” argument (Galatians 3:19-29)

The Bible never declares that Gentile believers are in ANY WAY the seed of Israel. It is not there!

Does the Bible ever declare that ALL the "pedigreed" seeds of Israel will have faith and be saved, or that there is ANY OTHER WAY to salvation? Is God a respecter of persons? -Nevermind that, don’t want to start this into a Calvinism debate either.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Benjamin,

Amen, well saying! :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!