Yea, it certainly has deceived a lot of Gentiles.
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Dispensationalism
- Thread starter Marooncat79
- Start date
Yea, it certainly has deceived a lot of Gentiles.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 66:8 asks, "Can a country be born in a day or a nation be delivered in an instant?"
On May 14, 1948, the British Mandate ended and the Jewish Agency officially declared the establishment of the State of Israel, which was immediately recognized by the U.S. and soon after by other nations.
I think they were referring to the fact that Israel would never again have the status they once had before God. But I could be wrong on that, but that is what I am thinking.
So some of you believe that the ashes of the red heifer atones for sin?
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Never heard that before. What else do you think dispensationalism teaches?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I don't believe any of the red heifer stuff. And I think any Jewish person who gets saved does so exactly like the rest of us do. But I do question whether there is anything in scripture saying that God is completely done with Israel as an ethnic people on Earth and will forever be silent towards Jews. One of the scariest verses to us Gentiles should be Romans 11:21 and the surrounding verses. Romans 11:23 seems to clarify that God may once again work with Jewish people after the flesh but it will be those who come to Christ by faith, just like the rest of us. It is quite clear to me that we (collectively Western European and North American gentiles) are throwing off the greatest amount of light and Godly influence in the history of mankind. England and Western Europe may be slightly ahead of us in decline but America even had the advantage of starting new with a full set of Christian beliefs and culture and in a few generations has instead become the biggest purveyors of porn and materialism on the planet.
And most Jews are as secular and immoral as the rest of us.
I dont think that it taught that
Ummm. It definitely did teach that. Not sure about now
According to John Hagee, there are righteous Jews who are non believers
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
That's informative. I honestly don't follow that end of the spectrum of Christianity any more. I like to hear what you guys say on this because I find myself back in a church more dispensational (at least at the John MacArthur level) and yet I still have a lot of relatives with bookshelves full of amillennial books and so on. The older I get the more I realize I most likely will not see what unfolds from this side anyway. But I do remember that in the 70's we had great fun trying to figure out who the antichrist was and putting numbers to everybody's names to see if they could come out as 666. And I remember when we got cable with more stations John Hagee if I remember right always had huge fantastic murals of end time events behind him when he spoke.
I have a question or so.
The children of Israel , the whole family, who left Egypt were the only people of all the earth whom were Known by God. Amos 3:1,2
That whole family was made up of two houses, the house of Judah and the house of Israel.
They were rules by judges and after begging for them, kings. They under both passed in and out of sin as God knew from before the foundation of the world they would do so. Time passed and finely God told the prophet Hosea that he would have mercy on the house of Judah but on the house of Israel he would no longed have mercy. He told Hosea the house of Israel would no longer be his people and he would no longer be their God. Jeremiah tells us in chapter 3:8 that God had given the house of Israel a bill of divorce.
Beginning in 721 God began to scatter the house of Israel among the nations / Gentiles.
While they are scattered among the nations, what do you think the house of Judah believes about them? Do you think the house of Judah believes them to be, Uncircumcision [foreskin, that which is castaway] ? Are they at that time; without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world ?
Yet God also said to Hosea that where is was said to them they would not be his people and he was not their God that they [that is I presume their ancestors ] would be called the sons of the living God.
How do you think that sonship would come about? All at once? Why is there a feast of first-fruit? Why not just a feast of fruit? Will there be a reconciliation due to the divorce? Read more in Hosea.
Here is what Jeremiah also says concerning them 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
One here, two there? What is Zion?
The children of Israel , the whole family, who left Egypt were the only people of all the earth whom were Known by God. Amos 3:1,2
That whole family was made up of two houses, the house of Judah and the house of Israel.
They were rules by judges and after begging for them, kings. They under both passed in and out of sin as God knew from before the foundation of the world they would do so. Time passed and finely God told the prophet Hosea that he would have mercy on the house of Judah but on the house of Israel he would no longed have mercy. He told Hosea the house of Israel would no longer be his people and he would no longer be their God. Jeremiah tells us in chapter 3:8 that God had given the house of Israel a bill of divorce.
Beginning in 721 God began to scatter the house of Israel among the nations / Gentiles.
While they are scattered among the nations, what do you think the house of Judah believes about them? Do you think the house of Judah believes them to be, Uncircumcision [foreskin, that which is castaway] ? Are they at that time; without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world ?
Yet God also said to Hosea that where is was said to them they would not be his people and he was not their God that they [that is I presume their ancestors ] would be called the sons of the living God.
How do you think that sonship would come about? All at once? Why is there a feast of first-fruit? Why not just a feast of fruit? Will there be a reconciliation due to the divorce? Read more in Hosea.
Here is what Jeremiah also says concerning them 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
One here, two there? What is Zion?
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Did you have a problem with that presentation or is that a correction for the errors of dispensationalism.
For the record, I don’t view dispensations as different ways of salvation. The just live by faith in any dispensation.
Dispensations taught as methods of salvation are incorrect.
Dispensations taught as paths towards salvation or circumstances that point to salvation are Bible studies.
I have never been a follower of Hagee in any way and don’t consider him a very good source for dispensation teaching. I’m not much of an authority on him. I haven’t heard enough of him to give an accurate assessment. Any time I have run into anything of his, it has always seemed like sensationalism type of preaching and when I have the option, that is not what I look for.
If Hagee is wrong, that doesn’t affect dispensations.
I would be more skeptical of covenant theology theories because they make it sound more like the old covenant could have been kept.
I’m sure I will get all sorts of you don’t understand covenant theology responses, but I would say the same thing for dispensations. It is misunderstood. I have a hard time putting both of them together and saying that they are discussing the same thing.
But if the blood of bulls and goats was not able to save anyone before Christ, why would it ever after Christ? But the fact that it cannot provide salvation doesn’t mean it will never happen again. Literal exegesis declares that it will happen again.
But nobody is changing the way of salvation by studying dispensations.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
No point any longer in manmade sacrifices, supposedly efficacious, or presumably memorial.
The Temple and entire Jewish economy of sacrifices was abolished in A.D. 70.
The Jews and Gentiles are One in Christ. Ephesians 2:14; "For He is our Peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;"
11; "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For He is our Peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 "Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making Peace;
16 "And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached Peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 "For through Him we both have access by One Spirit unto the Father."
I hope no one expects 'a millennium' of anything, since the Bible only speaks of 'a thousand years' which takes place in Heaven, as we see in Revelation 20:4; "And I saw thrones (in Heaven, right?), and they sat upon them (in Heaven, right?), and judgment was given unto them (in Heaven, right?): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (in Heaven, right?), and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (in Heaven, right?)."
There is no mention in the Bible of 'a millennium' OR 'a thousand years', where anything takes place, other than in Heaven, as Revelation 20:4 says, and any notion to the contrary by anyone adding the word 'Earth' into that passage, imagining that there would be a Reign of Jesus sometime 'on Earth', is nullified by God.
God Warns not to add to His Word and cites this very passage as being what eliminates any such idea of men using their sin-cursed reasoning to dream up 'A REIGN OF JESUS ON EARTH' which is not going to happen, because 'A REIGN OF JESUS ON EARTH' ever, is nowhere to be found in the Bible and the place they would like to say 'A REIGN OF JESUS ON EARTH' is, again, testifies against it, 100%.
'A REIGN OF JESUS ON EARTH' is not in there, anywhere, and, therefore, it will never need to be imagined that 'A REIGN OF JESUS ON EARTH' ever will.
Do you think it's fair that Israel has suffered more than any other country in the world from claiming the birthright God has promised them?
God doesn't think it's fair either and has already told us what He's going to do about it.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
The Jews saw to it that Jesus was crucified.
They sinned away their birthright.
Yes, Jesus Cursed the Fig Tree.
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables" - Titus 1:14
From:
The Hope of Israel:
What Is It?
1922, By Philip Mauro
CLICK HERE FOR PDF FILE OF ENTIRE BOOK
1. The Nature and Importance of the Question.
2. How are the Prophecies of Blessing to Israel to be Interpreted?
3. How the O.T. Prophecies concerning Israel were Interpreted by Paul.
4. What the Fathers of Israel were Looking for.
5. God's Warnings through Moses to His Earthly People.
6. God's Warnings through Moses (Continued).
7. God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Moses and Joshua.
8. Salvation in Zion : The Sure Mercies of David.
9. The Travail of Zion.
10. The New Covenant.
11. Ezekiel's Prophecies: The Doom of Jerusalem, The Branch, Valley of Death.
12. Ezekiel's Temple; Where Did the Spirit Descend at Pentecost?
13. What the N.T. Teaches as to Future Mercies for the Jews.
14. The Hope of the Gospel, Christ's Personal Teaching.
15. Other N.T. Passages on the Future of Israel.
16. Where is the Promise of His Coming?
17. The Election hath Obtained it. Hath God Cast Away His People?
18. Building Again the Tabernacle of David.
19. Shall Israel Be Restored as a Nation?
20. The Millennium.
What Is It?
1922, By Philip Mauro
CLICK HERE FOR PDF FILE OF ENTIRE BOOK
1. The Nature and Importance of the Question.
2. How are the Prophecies of Blessing to Israel to be Interpreted?
3. How the O.T. Prophecies concerning Israel were Interpreted by Paul.
4. What the Fathers of Israel were Looking for.
5. God's Warnings through Moses to His Earthly People.
6. God's Warnings through Moses (Continued).
7. God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Moses and Joshua.
8. Salvation in Zion : The Sure Mercies of David.
9. The Travail of Zion.
10. The New Covenant.
11. Ezekiel's Prophecies: The Doom of Jerusalem, The Branch, Valley of Death.
12. Ezekiel's Temple; Where Did the Spirit Descend at Pentecost?
13. What the N.T. Teaches as to Future Mercies for the Jews.
14. The Hope of the Gospel, Christ's Personal Teaching.
15. Other N.T. Passages on the Future of Israel.
16. Where is the Promise of His Coming?
17. The Election hath Obtained it. Hath God Cast Away His People?
18. Building Again the Tabernacle of David.
19. Shall Israel Be Restored as a Nation?
20. The Millennium.
No, afraid not! The birthright was a promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
That promise and all that goes with the birthright is still coming to Israel.
But God did say concerning Israel's sin, not for your sakes do I do this.
Ezekiel 36:28
"And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
36:32
"Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Humblesmith
Member
As to the OP question on whether a reinstituted sacrifice is effectual..........
I presume you mean a future temple sacrifices, per Ezekiel 40 - 48......? The short answer is no.
Some people have major heartburn over the idea of future temple ceremonies, claiming they would be blaspheming Christ's finished work. The discussion must consider that the Mosaic sacrifices were not effectual......the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin. So were the Mosaic sacrifices blasphemous? How about the temple in heaven that God showed Moses.......was that one blasphemous? Obviously not. So if there is no issue with God instituting a Mosaic sacrifice that is not effective, there is no issue with God instituting a millennial sacrifice that is not effective, but a memorial that looks back on Christ's effective sacrifice.
I presume you mean a future temple sacrifices, per Ezekiel 40 - 48......? The short answer is no.
Some people have major heartburn over the idea of future temple ceremonies, claiming they would be blaspheming Christ's finished work. The discussion must consider that the Mosaic sacrifices were not effectual......the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin. So were the Mosaic sacrifices blasphemous? How about the temple in heaven that God showed Moses.......was that one blasphemous? Obviously not. So if there is no issue with God instituting a Mosaic sacrifice that is not effective, there is no issue with God instituting a millennial sacrifice that is not effective, but a memorial that looks back on Christ's effective sacrifice.