Dispinsationalism

[Allan]

oh I did Allan,

Why do you point this out?? Do you feel this helps your views?

For that matter, why did you point out.."...secret retreat in the wilderness"

Is this the rapture?

My point is and has been that before Darby.. there already was spoken of a rapture.. whether mid, post, or pre.. at least on this point which 'you' raised.
And in fact.. a dispensational view though it was not uniformed specifically into a systematized type of doctrine per-say nor was it mainline.

 

[Jarthur001]

My point is and has been that before Darby.. there already was spoken of a rapture.. whether mid, post, or pre.. at least on this point which 'you' raised.

yes know full well of the Mid, post, and pre...I was a dispy for years.

What I want to know is, if you feel that these passages teach the rapture?

it is said by many that the "secret retreat in the wilderness" is the rapture.

Do you agree?

 

[Allan]

These sites....


These sites say YES...this is the rapture and they say this is proof that the rapture was talked about before Darby.

Do you agree?

Three of the four look exactly the same..
Personally I don't know.. I never read them..

What I gave you came from sitting down and read that book online (a little hard to follow is some places), while skimming over parts that didn't pertain to this topic. One quote came from a website, can't remember which one, that gave a page reference to the secret retreat.. I didn't use the website because I gave the page location of the quote itself.

 

[Allan]

yes know full well of the Mid, post, and pre...I was a dispy for years.

What I want to know is, if you feel that these passages teach the rapture?

it is said by many that the "secret retreat in the wilderness" is the rapture.

Do you agree?

OK.. I've jumped through all your little hoops so far..
How about YOU tell me.. Did he hold to a rapture event?

on page 368 we find him stating :

"Indeed, I feel strongly inclined to believe, that the proclamation of the second angel is synchronous with the loosing of the four winds, and the advent of our Lord in the air, where His saints meet Him"

... which is before the destruction of the Beast, the awful day of Armageddon (it states shortly thereafter) - page 372 addresses it as well.

Don't personally know how many Christians have super jump shoes now-a-days but it would be a little difficult for God's people to 'Meed Him in the AIR" with those or an airplane.

 

[Jarthur001]

Three of the four look exactly the same..
Personally I don't know.. I never read them..

What I gave you came from sitting down and read that book online (a little hard to follow is some places), while skimming over parts that didn't pertain to this topic. One quote came from a website, can't remember which one, that gave a page reference to the secret retreat.. I didn't use the website because I gave the page location of the quote itself.

Allan,

You will find on many websites that William Cuninghame supports early teaching on the rapture. They point to this book we have been talking about. EACH TIME...they point to the phrase.."secret retreat in the wilderness" as the RAPTURE.

This tells me they have NEVER read the book.

At that time the church is symbolized by two witnesses clothed in sackcloth, the garb of mourning. She is also represented as being fled into a secret retreat in the wilderness, where she is concealed from the face of the serpent that seeks to destroy her. On the contrary, the one hundred and fortyfour thousand, in this passage, stand upon Mount Sion, a station of the most conspicuous elevation, and the most opposite to a state of concealment in the wilderness which can well be imagined. The voices heard by the apostle from heaven, like the noise of many waters, and of thunder, and the voice of harpers playing on their harps, are also the emblems of triumphant songs of thanksgiving, which it were quite incongruous to suppose applicable to the condition of the depressed church in the wilderness before the reformation.

Now you too brought this up. I would guess it is for the same reasons, but again you have yet to say. But also you point to the phrase "ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man..." (pg 349)"


This too was brought for your support, but what support it gives in not clear. But one thing is very clear that this is not talking about the rapture. Another thing that is very clear, is that William Cuninghame sees the church and Israel of the OT as one and the same.

William Cuninghame:

I would here call the attention of the reader, to the close analogy which is observable between the past dispensations of God to the church .............SNIP........ The calling of Abraham and the birth of Isaac, .................SNIP............The exodus from Egypt .......SNIP........ The establishment of Israel ........SNIP.....The settlement of the crown of Israel in the person and family of David .................SNIP........The return of Judah from the Babylonish captivity, .............SNIP..........That dispensation whereby the Gentiles were received into the church in the room of the Jews, ...............SNIP.

In concluding, therefore, that the glorious inauguration of our Lord in his millennial kingdom, which is to be ushered in by his second advent with the clouds of heaven, shall likewise be signalized by the most terrific displays of the Divine wrath against an unbelieving world, we not only are guided by the unerring testimony of prophecy, but we might even, a priori, without any express assurances to that effect, have been led to form similar expectations, from an attentive study of the dispensations of providence in past ages.

TWO PAGE SNIP....but same subject...

Our Lord himself has emphatically assured us, " Behold I come as a thief, blessed is he that " watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk " naked and they see his shame;" and from these words we may certainly conclude, that he will come at a time, when few even of his own people expect it. In the mean while it becomes us to " gird up the loins " of our minds, and to prepare for that " time of " trouble such as there never was since there was " a nation,"which shall usher in the redemption of the church, and be introductory to those scenes of peace, and glory, and righteousness, for which the servants of God have prayed, and laboured, and fainted in every age. No human power or wisdom can avert the terrific events which are approaching.

Which begs the question:

Just where does William Cuninghame teach on the rapture?

 

[Jarthur001]

OK.. I've jumped through all your little hoops so far..
How about YOU tell me.. Did he hold to a rapture event?

No! I can not find it anywhere. You will need to show me.

on page 368 we find him stating :

1st...
His work ends on page 359.

However, there is an attachment...by Simpkin and Wilson.

2nd...
You need to give the heading, because I cant find that quote.

3rd...
He talks about the advent of our Lord a lot thoughout the book. It is not the rapture.

.

.. which is before the destruction of the Beast, the awful day of Armageddon (it states shortly thereafter) - page 372 addresses it as well.

Again, this is would not be Cuninghame.

The copy I have only goes to page 368. (1832). You may have a newer copy with a larger section added. If so, this dates after Darby.

Don't personally know how many Christians have super jump shoes now-a-days but it would be a little difficult for God's people to 'Meed Him in the AIR" with those or an airplane.

Nor do I. But these words are not unique to dispy. 1st...its in the Bible, so it should be believed by all. But it does not belong only to those that hold to a rapture.

 

[Jarthur001]

No problem.

The list applies to all who are and will be saved... and while it is speaking individually that does not negate the fact that the Jews Nationally will one day receive Him as King and Lord as scripture prophesy's. (sp?)

Sorry I forgot about Eph 1...

You say it is the same salvation. So lets look at verse 5.

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

predestinated....one of the blessings in the list

Verse 11 says the church is Predestinated to obtained an inheritance.

Is this inheritance the same as the Jewish nation?

 

[HankD]

Hi kyredneck,

Thank you for your comments, they are well taken.

Notice that I use the word "distinct" and "distinction" when speaking of Israel and the Church.

That is of course "redeemed" Israel and the "saved" Church (within the realm of professing Christendom), the Church of the Firstborn.

The unity of the kingdom of God is the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, to which all of history and the passage of time is bringing us.

Israel and the Church are distinct but not separate in the one New Jerusalem.

Husband and wife are one flesh, the two becoming one after they are united in matrimony. Yet they remain distinct persons.

The distinct persons of the Trinity are one God.

So, there can be unity and distinction of members in that unity.

"The Kingdom of God is at hand"...

So it was and still is, however in a different and distinct manifestation:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

There is presently no difference between Israel after the flesh and Gentiles of this world in relationship to the Church (apart from the fact that the Apostles were to go to the Jew first and then the Greek and that day is long removed).

All the childen of God must come in the same manner to the same Christ, by grace through faith, there is no difference in this age between Jews and Gentiles.


HankD

 

[Allan]

But also you point to the phrase "ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man..." (pg 349)"

There is no question as to what he is saying here.
The say the coming of the Lord (second advent) will happen just before the battle of Armageddon, the day of His wrath. I have given you the passages of where the quote can be found.. it is up to you to read the surrounding passages to get the context. The only way, according to his view, to ESCAPE first the wrath (that which has not yet happened) AND stand before the Lord.. (as I showed earlier - to meet Him in the air).. before the battle of Armageddon.

This too was brought for your support, but what support it gives in not clear. But one thing is very clear that this is not talking about the rapture.

And that is where I wonder if 'you' have actually read the book.. I was skimming it.. pausing to read what pertained to our discussion.. and can't get away from the fact he held to a post-trib rapture. There is no question.

Another thing that is very clear, is that William Cuninghame sees the church and Israel of the OT as one and the same.

No.. you haven't pointed that out.
He speaks continuously about the restoration/salvation of the NATION of Israel. IF he sees them as the same he would have no care for such biblical aspects. There would be 'no need' for a restoration of Israel if it is one and the same.

With respect to salvation, yes.. we are Gods children but with respect to a distinction of purpose .. YOU must answer the question.. what is the purpose of the restoration/salvation of the NATION of Israel.. if the Church is Israel.

Here is another interesting book of his "Remarks upon David Levi's dissertation on the Prophesies related to the Messiah"

This speaks a lot to restoration of Israel.

Which begs the question:

Just where does William Cuninghame teach on the rapture?

I have already shown you many places.. What do you think it means for the saints to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, before Armageddon?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'll read this all later. Has someone yet told the Dispensationalism Doctrine that they are FOR or AGAINST?

-

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Allan and Hank,
Allan writes:

Second.. I know that Ephesians 1 is to the saints individually, it does not negate the fact that Israel as a nation will be restored and come back to God in a saving way. It still applies. Just because we are all saved the same way does not mean that God does not have a distinction of purpose for the Israel in relation to the Church. As I said previously to James.. it is much like Cals and Arms.. If both are saved.. God has a distinction of purpose for each group (otherwise there wouldn't be the two) yet it is not placing one group OVER another.. but both are apart of the family of God.

I agree that salvation is by grace through faith under the Old and New
Covenantal dispensations. I also agree that God will save Israel nationally at
Christ's second coming. But the "distinction" begins here with regard to the
condition for salvation. The Jews will SUDDENLY realize their "Redemption
and Kingdom are near" WHEN they see their Messiah coming with the Saints!

The "distinction" between the Bride of the Lamb and the "New Covenant for
Redeemed Israel" is that they "pray to escape the approaching wrath" by a
prayer of repentance. After "standing erect and looking up and beginning to mourn and becoming jealous" as they recognize they are not included among the Saints coming with their Messiah, He urges them to "be begging to escape and to be able to stand before the Son of Man"! Luke 21:28-36; Rom.11:11.

The Saints are not among those who "pray to escape" since they, the Two Prophets and the 144,000 Jewish Firstfruit (already rescued and having sung their two songs and having entered the Temple in heaven for its 3-Act Drama...Rev.15:5; Rev.7:9-8:5; Rev.11:15-19) will have been caught up to meet their Messiah. As Christ descends with all the Saints, it is too late for those who pray to "escape" God's wrath to be part of the Lamb's Bride...but not too late to be rescued from God's wrath. They will be "preserved" (Luke 17:33) during the "Hour of Testing that is coming on all the inhabitants on all the face of all the earth...during the Hour from which all Believers are Kept as Christ appears"!! Luke 21:34-36; Rev.3:10-11.

This explains the reason for the "distinction" that leads to the realization by Israel that their Old Covenant has passed away and that "all mankind comes to know the Lord...from the least to the greatest...with the Two Houses of Ephraim and Judah reunited as One Stick". Ezek.37:15-28; Heb.8:13. A new Condition for inheriting the eternal Kingdom on earth goes into effect for 1000 years...one that is based on whether nations treat "the least of Jesus' brethren as they treat Jesus Himself". Matt.25:31-46. The question is NOT whether the Rapture was recognized before Darbyism; but to determine the status of those who will be saved TOO late for the Rapture and being a member of His Bride; but yet of being saved with the hope of eternal life in the Kingdom on earth after "worshiping the Lord" (Rev.15:4 to fulfill the Song of Moses) and obeying the Condition He gives...for "ALL mankind will know the Lord...and must worship Him"!!!
Mel Miller

 

[Allan]

No! I can not find it anywhere. You will need to show me.

Then you are willingly not listening or reading.

1st...
His work ends on page 359.

It was a mis-type.. page 340
I REALLY have no idea why I typed that in like that

It is the lower part of the page.

However, there is an attachment...by Simpkin and Wil

son.
Nope.. I'm read and am quoting from his second edition from 1817 (not 1832)

If you use the weblink I provided early you will see it is am imaged copy of the original book.

3rd...
He talks about the advent of our Lord a lot thoughout the book. It is not the rapture.

No one said 'The Advent' was the rapture.
He illustrates over and over that it takes place 'at' the advent of the Lord, prior to Armageddon.
.

Again, this is would not be Cuninghame.

Yes. It is.

The copy I have only goes to page 368. (1832). You may have a newer copy with a larger section added. If so, this dates after Darby.

No.. I am using his second edition "Corrected and Enlarged" from 1817.
Nope.. it PREDATES Darby.

Nor do I. But these words are not unique to dispy. 1st...its in the Bible, so it should be believed by all. But it does not belong only to those that hold to a rapture.

Granted.. it is not the words alone that make the case but the fact he states when the Lord returns (the Advent) we will meet him in the air.. and that takes place, according to him, BEFORE Armageddon.

 

[Jarthur001]

There is no question as to what he is saying here.
The say the coming of the Lord (second advent) will happen just before the battle of Armageddon, the day of His wrath. I have given you the passages of where the quote can be found.. it is up to you to read the surrounding passages to get the context. The only way, according to his view, to ESCAPE first the wrath (that which has not yet happened) AND stand before the Lord.. (as I showed earlier - to meet Him in the air).. before the battle of Armageddon.


And that is where I wonder if 'you' have actually read the book.. I was skimming it.. pausing to read what pertained to our discussion.. and can't get away from the fact he held to a post-trib rapture. There is no question.


No.. you haven't pointed that out.
He speaks continuously about the restoration/salvation of the NATION of Israel. IF he sees them as the same he would have no care for such biblical aspects. There would be 'no need' for a restoration of Israel if it is one and the same.

With respect to salvation, yes.. we are Gods children but with respect to a distinction of purpose .. YOU must answer the question.. what is the purpose of the restoration/salvation of the NATION of Israel.. if the Church is Israel.

Here is another interesting book of his "Remarks upon David Levi's dissertation on the Prophesies related to the Messiah"

This speaks a lot to restoration of Israel.



I have already shown you many places.. What do you think it means for the saints to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, before Armageddon?

Allan,

You asked..."What do you think it means for the saints to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, before Armageddon?"...it means the 2nd coming.

Are you saying that the rapture is both the church and the Jewish nation as one?

Most dispy believe only the church is raptured and not the nation.

WHO IS THE CHURCH??
Cuninghame says...

PAGE 350---

I would here call the attention of the reader, to the close analogy which is observable between the past dispensations of God to the church and the world, and the conclusions at which I have arrived, respecting the actual prospects of the nations of Christendom.

>>>> MY ADD...this is his list showing the work in the past

In every new development of his plan of mercy and salvation to the human race, it has hitherto pleased God that mercy and judgment should as it were go hand in hand.

The calling of Abraham and the birth of Isaac, were nearly coeval with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by fire from heaven.

The exodus from Egypt was assodated with the desolation of that kingdom by the ten plagues, and the destruction of Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea.

The establishment of Israel in the land of Canaan, was effected by the extirpation of a great part of the aboriginal inhabitants.

The settlement of the crown of Israel in the person and family of David was accompanied with dreadful wars, whereby the remainder of the Canaanitish nations were brought into subjection or destroyed.

The return of Judah from the Babylonish captivity, was preceded by the fall of the empire of Assyria.

That dispensation whereby the Gentiles were received into the church in the room of the Jews, was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem with circumstances of so awful a nature as made it a fit type and emblem of the judgments of the last days.

In concluding, therefore, that the glorious inauguration of our Lord in his millennial kingdom, which is to be ushered in by his second advent with the clouds of heaven, shall likewise be signalized by the most terrific displays of the Divine wrath against an unbelieving world, .........

 

[Jarthur001]

Then you are willingly not listening or reading.


It was a mis-type.. page 340
I REALLY have no idea why I typed that in like that

It is the lower part of the page.

Maybe this will help....

ooops..just read it. I have addressed this.

Please note the words in my last post that follows this page.

No one said 'The Advent' was the rapture.
He illustrates over and over that it takes place 'at' the advent of the Lord, prior to Armageddon.

over and over.....just give me one line from one page.

ADDED LATER....

Does he talk ANYWAY about a rapture???


.

 

[Jarthur001]

I'll read this all later. Has someone yet told the Dispensationalism Doctrine that they are FOR or AGAINST?

-

hello Ed,

I'm not going to debate if Dispensationalism Doctrine is wrong or right. This would take the better part of my time. There are to many "plans" and we could take a week before we pick just one to debate.

I would like to know your input on two things.

1) Dispensationalism was or was not started by Darby...mainly the rapture.

2) Dispensationalism teaches one or two salvation plans. One for the Jews, and one for the church. OR....All plans are the same.

 

[HankD]

Hi Jauthur001,

I'm not Ed, but since this is an open debate forum I'll give a few thoughts.

The "rapture" - a term within dispensationalism. Comes from the Latin Vulgate translation of the koine Greek word "harpazo" (Strong's 726) of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

rap-, rapt- Latin stems which are often receptor words of harpazo

Examples:

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away (harpazo) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.​

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.​

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (hapazo) unto God, and to his throne.​

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

That some shall be "caught up" to meet Him in the air is not debatable as Scripture is clear concerning this aspect of the harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.​

What is debatable is the timing and the manner of the harpazo.​

To be honest, as far as I can tell, it was Mary Macdonald/John Nelson Darby who made it a "secret" snatching away as a "thief in the night" of the elect.​

This apparently they extracted from the writings of a couple of Jesuits translating from the Latin rapt-uro, rapt-is, etc stems.​

At least they seem to be the originators of that part of the "rapture" doctrine. I have never seen it portrayed as a "secret" event in the writings of the Early Church Fathers (ECF).​

They portray His coming (and the harpazo) in all His Glory as a visible, public, bodily return for His own and to punish the world for their iniquity.​

To be honest it seems that the ECF were post "Jacob's Trouble" and pre-Chiliad (That would be "post-trib" and "pre mill" in contemporary labeling) as to the harpazo event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - which goes against the grain of most of modern dispensationalism of "pre-trib", "pre-mill".​

There is such a colossal volume of ECF writings, most of it dealing with heresies of the day, I might have missed it if there were writers who propounded a secret rapture.​

You are already aware of my feeling that there was, is and ever shall be only one way of salvation for anyone.​

HankD

 

[webdog]

Hi Jauthur001,

I'm not Ed, but since this is an open debate forum I'll give a few thoughts.

The "rapture" - a term within dispensationalism. Comes from the Latin Vulgate translation of the koine Greek word "harpazo" (Strong's 726) of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

rap-, rapt- Latin stems which are often receptor words of harpazo

Examples:

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away (harpazo) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.​

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.​

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (hapazo) unto God, and to his throne.​

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

That some shall be "caught up" to meet Him in the air is not debatable as Scripture is clear concerning this aspect of the harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.​

What is debatable is the timing and the manner of the harpazo.​

To be honest, as far as I can tell, it was Mary Macdonald/John Nelson Darby who made it a "secret" snatching away as a "thief in the night" of the elect.​

This apparently they extracted from the writings of a couple of Jesuits translating from the Latin rapt-uro, rapt-is, etc stems.​

At least they seem to be the originators of that part of the "rapture" doctrine. I have never seen it portrayed as a "secret" event in the writings of the Early Church Fathers (ECF).​

They portray His coming (and the harpazo) in all His Glory as a visible, public, bodily return for His own and to punish the world for their iniquity.​

To be honest it seems that the ECF were post "Jacob's Trouble" and pre-Chiliad (That would be "post-trib" and "pre mill" in contemporary labeling) as to the harpazo event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - which goes against the grain of most of modern dispensationalism of "pre-trib", "pre-mill".​

There is such a colossal volume of ECF writings, most of it dealing with heresies of the day, I might have missed it if there were writers who propounded a secret rapture.​

You are already aware of my feeling that there was, is and ever shall be only one way of salvation for anyone.​

HankD

Excellent post. Just wanted to say that so I remember to follow this thread

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Jauthur001,

I'm not Ed, but since this is an open debate forum I'll give a few thoughts.

ok

The "rapture" - a term within dispensationalism. Comes from the Latin Vulgate translation of the koine Greek word "harpazo" (Strong's 726) of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

rap-, rapt- Latin stems which are often receptor words of harpazo

Examples:

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away (harpazo) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.​

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.​

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (hapazo) unto God, and to his throne.​

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

That some shall be "caught up" to meet Him in the air is not debatable as Scripture is clear concerning this aspect of the harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.​

yes

To be honest, as far as I can tell, it was Mary Macdonald/John Nelson Darby who made it a "secret" snatching away as a "thief in the night" of the elect.​

Indeed

To be honest it seems that the ECF were post "Jacob's Trouble" and pre-Chiliad (That would be "post-trib" and "pre mill" in contemporary labeling) as to the harpazo event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 - which goes against the grain of most of modern dispensationalism of "pre-trib", "pre-mill".

indeed ..Chiliasm is very close to dispensationalism

reading

http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/wil_masselink/wil_masselink.History.Chiliasm.html

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1645_baillie_chiliasm.html

video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coxhf2imnCo
​

 

[Ed Edwards]

quoted in a past post, author unknonw (well, not the scritpure

// 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That some shall be "caught up" to meet Him in the air is not debatable as Scripture is clear concerning this aspect of the harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. \\

Of course, is 'caught up', meeting Jesus in the Air, exactly REQUIRE going vertical 'up'?. Remember that when Lazras and Jesus were Resurreced they did not go into the air vertically, but out the door of a grave horizontially. Recall that 'up' is dependant upon the location on earth. My Aussie friends'es 'up' is in nearly the opposite (180-degrees off a few degrees ) of mine. "Those exactly opposite with me are actually a thousand miles west of Perth, Aus. -- If we are resurrected &/or harpazo-ed &/or raptured -- and some one takes a picture of it -- IF the Australian friends are shown going up -- THEN it will look like I am dropping out of my grave. IF i am shown going up THEN it will look like the Australian fariend is falling out of his grave.

But most people think they are literalists but cannot see this 'caught up'.​

 

[Jarthur001]

At the link below forward to about the 6:50 time and hear a dispy say something like this....

Salvation is secondary purpose...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_I8ZH1v-kM&feature=related