Dispy's chief error not eschatological but is Ecclisiological

[OldRegular]

I would take this as the second coming after the Tribulation. All will see him "even" those who pierced, which is pointing out that it includes the Jews.

Doesn't sound like a picture at all to me.

So just like The Hour does not mean The Hour, every eye shall see Him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him does not mean every eye shall see Him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. And all this time I thought that the dispensational hermeneutic was literal interpretation of scripture. Just goes to show things are not always as advertised.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So just like The Hour does not mean The Hour

No, "the hour" means "the hour." I showed several comparison passages that you refused to deal with.

every eye shall see Him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him does not mean every eye shall see Him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

Not sure what your point is. You left out a phrase, but I didn't disagree with that every eye shall see him.

And all this time I thought that the dispensational hermeneutic was literal interpretation of scripture. Just goes to show things are not always as advertised.

Usually it is called "the normal interpretation." The word "literal" leads people mistakenly to believe that dispensationalists do not believe in figurative language, but we do. We simply say that language should be interpreted normally.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Rev 17:8 (KJV 1769): from =apo the beast that thou sawest, was, and is not, and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, (whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[BTW, the Jews(not the Christians) were "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" So this passage is about Jewish/Israeli so the Tribulation period is for the Jewish/Israeli. By contrast, the Christian were "written in the book of life before the foundation of the world"]

I disagree. This is your opinion. Rev. 17:18 is not just limited for 'Jews'/'Israeli(earthly Jewish nation) only, also, it apply to every individuals throughout all ages of believers both Jews and Gentiles.

By the way, word, "Jews" found ONLY 2 times in book of Revelation - Rev. 2:9 and 3:9, that's it. Also, word, "Israel" found ONLY three times in book of Revelation - Rev. 2:14; 7:4; and 21:12.

Pretribulationalists saying that, 'Church' is not appear from Revelation chapter 4 to 19, prove that Church is up in the heaven by rapture before Tribulation begins. The problem is, nowhere between in chapter 4 to 19 saying that John did see "Church" up in the heaven either.

Pretribulationalists saying that, Revelation chapter 6 to 19 focus on Jews/Israel only. The problem is, NOWHERE in between chapter 4 to 19 say, "Jews". Huh? Also, there is only ONE word, "Israel" found in Rev. 7:4 whilst as pretribs claim Revelation chapter 6 to 19 cover on Israel.

So my point is, do 'Israel' is being excluded from Revelation chapter 6, and chapter 8 thru 19???

Same as my point is, do 'Jews' being excluded from Revelation chapter 6 to 19??? Whilst, word, "Jews" do not appear between chapter 6 to 19??

Same with "Church", my last point is does, "Church" being excluded from Revelation chapter 4 to 19, whilst word, 'Church' is not appear in between chapter 4 to 19??

Therefore, the Book of Revelation is not just for "Jews/Israeli" only, also, in Rev. 1:11 Jesus said to John, "Saying, 'I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and SEND IT UNTO THE SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

The Book of Revelation was written FOR the churches, first sent it unto the seven churches of Asia(now Greece and Turkey), then also apply to all churhces over the world. Also, in Rev. 22:16, Christ said to John: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things IN THE CHURCHES. I am the root and the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

This verse tells us, the book of Revelation was written FOR the churches over the world, not just for the seven local churches of Asia only. Clear, the book of Revelation was written for all Christians(believers).

Rev. 17:8 warns to every (lost or unsaved) individuals of the world both Jews and Gentiles, if anyone wonder(shock) and worshipping the beast, their names are not written in the book of life, this verse 8 is not just for supposed future seven year of Tribulation period only, also, it apply to all ages of every individuals from the beginning(Genesis) to last day(John 6:39,40,44, & 54) of humankind era or gospel era.

I hope that you understand what my points are all about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

The Book of Revelation was written FOR the churches, first sent it unto the seven churches of Asia(now Greece and Turkey), then also apply to all churhces over the world. Also, in Rev. 22:16, Christ said to John: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things IN THE CHURCHES. I am the root and the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

This verse tells us, the book of Revelation was written FOR the churches over the world, not just for the seven local churches of Asia only. Clear, the book of Revelation was written for all Christians(believers).

You are correct DeafPosttrib!:thumbs:

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: // I disagree. This is your opinion. //

You have the right to disagree with my opinion
Your disagreement is your opinion.
You made no point here, but you beat the air up good!

DeafPosttrib: //
So my point is, do 'Israel' is being excluded from Revelation chapter 6, and chapter 8 thru 19??? //

The term 'Israel' may not appear in Revelation 6, 8-10; these chapters are a lot about Israel though - physical Israel.

For example Revelation 11:1-2 speaks of Measuring the Physical Temple of God in Physical Jerusalem. You know, the Physical Jerusalem which is the Physical Capital of Physcial Israel (well, in some generations/eras/ages anyway, but not all). So Revelation 11:1-2 is talking of Israel but the only group it mentions is 'the Gentiles'.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

The term 'Israel' may not appear in Revelation 6, 8-10; these chapters are a lot about Israel through-physical Israel.

I have been read and study book of Revelation for 20 years. I never stop learning them, still learning till I die or Christ comes. I know you saying that you have been read and study Revelation for about 50 years. I respect your beliefs and faith.

Can you please prove me anywhere a verse in Revelation chapter 6, 8-10 citied of 'physical' or 'earthly' -"Jewish nation"?

Also, you say,

For example Revelation 11:1-2 speaks of Measuring the Physical Temple of God in Physical Jerusalem. You know, the Physical Jerusalem which is the Physical Captial of Physical Israel (well, in some generations/eras/ages anyway, but not all). So Revelation 11:1-2 is talking of Israel but the only group it mentions is 'the Gentiles.'

Early in my Christian life, I used to interpreting Revelation into literal completely. Because, pretribulationlists always interpreting Revelation into literally too much, and lack of being interpreting them spiritually with no balance.

The only way that we shall be able to understanding book of Revelation better, firstly, we need to read throughout whole Bible and New Testament books BEFORE we get arrive Revelation. If we jump or skip ahead over all 65 books of Bible, go ahead read Revelation and to intepreting all scriptures into literal all the times, no way that we shall be able to understand them better and could be easily make us misunderstanding or confusion.

First the only way that we can understand 'Israel' clear. Start with reading in the Old Testament books.

Old Testament books deal on Israel as earthly nation.

Because, in Hebrews 10:1 explains of 'shadow things' which speaking of physical things in the Old Testament books like as physical lamb, physical sacrifices, physical offerings, physical high priests, physical building of the temple, physical Israel nation, etc. All of these are "shadow things" which speaking of the coming Messiah - Jesus Christ. When Christ came to earth, he came not to destroy them, but to FUFILL them(prophecies & 'shadow things') by Calvary.

Now, we are no longer need physical things such as "shadow things" of O.T. books anymore. That means, we do not need another future physical Jewish nation to be restored again. We are already part member or citizenship as commonwealth of Israel, and now we are a holy nation(1 Peter 2:9).

By the way, nowhere throughout in the four gospels, a verse which Christ says there will be a future earthly physical Jewish nation to be restored again. Because in Matt. 21:43, Christ said that the kingdom of God was already took away from unbelieving Jews and given to nation(which speak of Gentiles) that is now we are a holy nation(1 Peter 1:9). Matt. 21:43 is very clear support with Romans 11:24-25 speaking of unbelieving Jews were cut off from Olive Tree, and God grafted wild branches(Gentiles) into Olive Tree join with believing Jews together, therefore, Gentiles are part of commonwealth of Israel-"So all Israel shall be saved"-Romans 11:26. Romans chapter 11 is not speaking of future physical Jewish nation, but speak of spiritual salvation of Olive Tree- Jesus Christ.

So, when after we read throughout all 26 New Testament books first BEFORE we get into Revelation. So, we shall be able to understand Revelation better before we get into misunderstanding or misinterpreting them.

Stop for now. I will continue discuss next post as what you say of Revelation 11:1-2.

To be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Let's continue discuss on Revelation 11:1-2.

Earlier, I discuss on 'shadow of good things to come' of Hebrews 10:1. These are deal of physical things in Old Testament like, physical lamb, physical sacrifices, physical offerings, high priests, etc.

Now I am talking about the temple.

"the temple of God" of Rev. 11:1, pretribs always intepreting it into literal physical building of the temple which will be locate in literal physical Jerusalem.

Again, I have to explain on book of Revelation. The only way that we shall be able to read and understand book of Revelation better is- FIRST, we have to read throughout whole Bible of 65 books before we get in book of Revelation.

We have to focus on 'temple' throughout Bible from O.T. to N.T. books to understand what these are all talking about before we get to Revelation.

When we read in the Old Testament books. Old Testament deals with temple as literal physical building. Because, of the purpose was, the building of temple is for to show Jews of the "shadow of the good things to come"(Heb. 10:1) which speaks of prophecies on the coming Messiah - Jesus Christ.

Ok, first when we come to Daniel 9:24-27. This is so important passage of prophecy. Pretribs intepreting Daniel 9:24-27 into gap times. They saying verse 24-26 speak of prophecy on the first coming of Messiah, for to rebuilt the second temple in Jerusalem. They are correct on verse 24-26. But, they say, verse 27 is not yet fulfill or occur, they saying it will be fulfill in the future so called, "seven year of Tribulation period" that the Antichrist will sign "peace treaty" with Israel. Also, they say, "in the midst of the week" means that the Antichrist will break the promise or covenant with Israel in the middle of seven year of Tribulation Period.

They misinterpet Dan. 9:27. Because, Daniel 9:27 says nothing anything about the coming "Antichrist" and "sign peace treaty" with Israel. Also, there is no gap time in this verse. Verse 27 focus on one person -'Messiah' is Jesus Christ. Verse 27 contexts with verse 24 thru 26 focus on 70 weeks of rebuilt temple and the coming Messiah for the new covenant.

The timing of Daniel 9:24-27 was written during captivity under Babylon in year around 490 B.C. Notice seventy weeks. Easy to do is to math 70 x 7 = 490. That is 490 years. Daniel 9:24-25 were already fulfilled that the temple of Herod were built in year around 45 B.C.

When the construction of Herod Temple was completed. That was the right time for Jesus came to earth as birth in year around 4 B.C. during reign of King Herod.

Now, we have to look in John 2:19-21.

19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body."

Christ told Jews that second temple will be destroyed, and he will raise it up in three days. Jews were not understanding what Christ was talking about. They thought Christ was mean that he will destroy literal physical temple, and will raise it up literally and physical in only three days. They misunderstood Him what he was talking about.

Christ was spoken of temple which is of his body as temple.

While Christ was on the cross, and he yelled and said, "it is finished", then his body yiled up, immediately at same time, the veil of the temple was torn down from top to bottom- Matt. 27:50-51. It shows that God is done with physical temple of physical Jerusalem. God doesn't need another physical temple in physical Jerusalem again anymore in the future. Because Jesus is NOW the temple, himself.

Also, in Matt. 24:2, when Christ was with disciples, they shew him of temple. Christ told them that building of temple will be destroy. They were shocked at Christ. Christ's prophecy on destruction of temple was already fulfilled by Romans Army in year around 70 A.D.

My question is, can you find any verse throughout in the four gospels that, does Christ actual say that there will be another future literal physical temple to be rebuilt again?? If so, please show me a verse to prove it.

Now we come to Pauline epistles. Apostle Paul did taught on temple. Please look to 1 Cor. 3:16-17 say: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLETH IN YOU? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

Paul said that we ARE the 'temple of God', which Christ dwells in us as Holy Spirit.

Also, in 1 Cor. 6:19-20 say: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in YOUR BODY, and in your spirit, which are God's."

Paul said that our body are the temple of God.

First, Jesus became the temple, because he is our foundation as the rock as He is 'Church'/Israel'. Then, when we believed and accepted Christ, then we became part of the members in the body of Christ that is the picture of Church. Temple IS the "Church". Understand clear?

Now I better stop. This post is already long. I better make another post to continue discuss FOCUS on Rev. 11:1-2.

To be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Now, my question to ask you.

Please can you find any verse in Pauline epistles saying that , there will be future literal physical building of temple will be rebuilt again in physical Jerusalem?

Many pretribs use 2 Thess. 2:4 - "sitteth in the temple of God", they saying that, future Antichrist wiil sit on literal physical throne in literal physical building temple in seven year of Tribulation period.

I want to show you seomthing important word - "sitteth" of verse 4. It doesn't mean that he will actually sit on literal throne. It represents as to have power or to rule over.

"Sitteth" is a clear example verse finds in Revelation 17:9 says, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountians, on which the woman sitteth."

Ok, does this verse means that a literal woman will sit on a literal throne on literal seven physical mountians? Let use in our imagine as with our own literal eyes. Why not you go and looking to find a literal woman which sit on a literal throne upon seven literal physical mountians or hills? Impossible for us to find a literal woman sits on a literal throne upon literal seven physical mountians. Imagine: If suppose, it is literal and physical things of Rev. 17:9. Then my point is, the seven literal physical mountians might so HUGE and miles away scattered, impossible for a TINY literal woman sits on a TINY literal throne on literal HUGE physical seven hills or mountians?!! Nosense.

Rev. 17:9 gives a picture speaking of a beast system(evil dark shadow government) will rule over the world. Remember, earth have seven continents-North America, South America, Africa, Europe(include Russia and Asia), Austriala, Greenland(north pole), and Antractica(south pole). Verse 9 speaks of the wicked dark shadow government perfectly so called, "New World Order" will control or rule over the world as one world government.

Now back to 2 Thess. 2:4. It says: "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

First, 2 Thess. 2:3 tells us, our gathering together and Lord's coming will NOT COME till we must first see come apostasy("falling away") and the revealed of Satan.

By follow the apostasy within Church, as individuals of Christians' spiritual conditions becoming worst as decling into compromise with the world. Then when God knows the right time to come. Then, God will allow Satan to be loose out of the way(2 Thess. 2:6-8 & Rev. 20:3,7), and Satan shall reveal to the world as dicator in man. He will delcare to world that he claims as himself is God, to deceive the world.

When after Satan being loose out of the way, then Satan will sitteth in the temple of God, which speaks of make war or persecution against Christians.

Be prepare that we as Christians will face horrible persecutions will hit us in America hard one day soon.

Satan will use "Martial Laws" according Dan. 7:25 by changing "times" and "laws" pictured as Satan will rule over the Church(Christians) over the world clearly speaking of persecutions.

Now again, I ask you the same question.

Can you find a verse anywhere in Pauline epistles that, Paul say there will be a future literal physical building of temple to be rebuilt again in literal physical Jerusalem? If so, please prove a verse to me.

New Testament books is very clear teaching us that the temple of God is speak of us as Christians, that we ARE the 'temple of God'. That means, the temple of God is CHURCH-God's people. Simple and plain.

And finally. Now I am going to discuss on Rev. 11:1-2. The only way that we shall be able to read and understand Revelation better, first we have to read throughout 65 books of Bible BEFORE we read Revelation. If suppose we skip ahead over to last book of Bible -Revelation. Then, no way that we shall be able to read and understand them without read throughout first of 65 books of Bible first. See? That why there are lot of Christians are easy misunderstanding and being fraustrate being read Revelation, many of them are easy being avoid read Revelation, the reason is, they would say, "I am too afraid" or "It's too diifficult to read", etc. That why, they seem not really read study throughout whole Bible well enough.

Now let's focus on Rev. 11:1-2 as what you saying of this passage.

Let's read Revelation 11:1-2 say:

1 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

I think this post seems long already. So, I better make another next post to discuss deep on Rev. 11:1-2.

To be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

To be continued.

Remember, the book of Revelation is filled of symbol things with spiritual meanings. We cannot always interpreting all verses of Revelation into literal things all the times. We have to be balance by interpreting verses into both literal and spiritual depend on what verse is talking about.

Rev. 11:1 tells us, the angel told John, to measuring the temple of God. But next verse 2 tells us, John is not able to measuring the exactly how big of feet or inches long is the temple of God be. Because, the court is break apart outside of temple(pictured as it is speaking of Christians shall be scattered out outside anywhere in the wilderness). The reason is, the temple of God shall be given to the Gentiles. To my understanding of this which speaking of world shall rule over them(Church) pictured in 2 Thess. 2:4 & Rev. 17:9. The holy city shall be tread under foot for 42 months. This is speaking of Church will be persecute by heathens.

'Gentiles' of Rev. 11:2 is simple represent as unbelievers well as our enemy. 'Gentiles' of Rev. 11:2 is NOT always mean Gentiles only, also, it could be include unbelieving Jews well. Either Jew or Gentile unbelievers will war or persecute against Christians(both believing Jews and Gentiles) for a short time.

Rev. 11:1-2 do not suggest that, this passage say that, there will be a future literal physical temple will be rebuilt in physical Jerusalem. Rather, this passage speaking of wicked nations will persecute against Church for a short time(future Great Tribulation).

"the holy city" of Rev. 11:2 is not mean that it speaks of literal earthly modern Jerusalem, where unbelieving Jews dwell there right now. "the holy city" speaks of God's people(Christians or saints).

Please look to Rev. 20:9 says: "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints, and 'the beloved city': and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

This verse 9 tells the same thing as event with Rev. 11:2 which speaking of wicked nations will persecute against Christians("the camp of the saints about" as individual Christians), and make war against Church(the whole body of Christ as believers-'the beloved city') for a "little season"(Rev. 20:3 -42 months).

How do I know "the holy city" & "the beloved city" identified as Church?

In Galatians 4:24-26 telling us, that there are two kinds of 'Jerusalem', firstly, 'Jerusalem is which is still bind as bondage pictured as unsaved is earthly. Second, 'Jerusalem' which is above is free, which is the mother of US ALL. We are Jerusalem- Church wella s God's people.

In Hebrews 12:22-23 telling us that we are come to the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem- Church(God's people).

Simple, use in our common sense.


Earthly Jerusalem - bondage and unsaved people

Heavenly Jerusalem - free and saved people.

Make sense?

Conclusion:

Nowhere in the book of Revelation suggests that there will be future literal physical building of temple will be rebuilt again in literal physical earthly Jerusalem.

Remmeber, the book of Revelation is fill of symbol things with spiritual meanings. We have to be careful when we read and study Revelation. We cannot always interpreting all verses in Revelation as literally all the times. We have to be balance to intepreting both literally and spiritually on verses in revelation, depend on what verse is talking about, so, we can understand them better. And finally, before we come to read Revelation, first, we have to read throughout whole 65 books of Bible BEFORE we read Revelation, SO, we shall be able to read Revelation and understanding better so we would not have to be fear of it and much more easier to read it AFTER we read and study throughout all 65 books of the Bible first.

Make sense?

Finally, Rev. 11:1-2 is talking about unbelievers of nations will persecute against us as Church for a little season-Great Tribulation. It have do nothing with supposed of future literal physical building of temple will be rebuilt again in Jerusalem.

Because, Jesus, Paul, and apostles in the N.T. books, none of them say that there will be another future literal physical building temple will be rebuilt again in modern Jerusalem. Because Christ fulfilled it by through his resurrection, therefore NOW Jesus is the temple of God. When we accepted Christ, then Christ is dwell in us as we ARE the 'temple God', well as Church IS the 'temple of God'.

Understand clear? Make sense?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!