Distortion of Scripture

[DHK]

Originally posted by bmerr:
DHK,

bmerr here. The requested passage is found in Matt 12:22-37 and Mark 3:22-30. For the sake of brevity, I will give the passage from Mark.

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the pricne of the devils casteth he out devils.

23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.

27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

These scribes had attributed the work that Jesus had done in healing one who had been possessed by a blind and dumb spirit (Matt 12:22).

Jesus explains to them that attributing the work of God to Satan was blasphemy against the Spirit of God. For this, they were in danger of eternal damnation.

So how is it that I refer to this text when you say that baptism is a pagan ritual?

How is it that your last statement as well as the rest of your post has gone off on rabbit trails, not dealing with this text. All you have done is quoted this text. Show how it is relevant today. How have I blaspehemed the Holy Spirit in the context of this Scripture. This Scripture is not talking of Baptism. That is clear for all who have read it. Demonstrate your accusation against me that I have blasphemed the Holy Spirit using this Scripture only. Keep to the context. Or apologize and give a retraction of what you said if you can't do it.
DHK

 

[bmerr]

DHK,

bmerr here. What authority you must think you have to impose such limitations! It's a wonder you don't reject more of the Bible, since it's writers didn't always keep to their immediate context, but referred to other Scriptures for support.

Indeed the text in question does not mention or speak of baptism. It does, however, demonstrate the danger of attributing the work of God to Satan. I demonstrated my charge against you with these words:

And then you come along, and proclaim that the instructions concerning baptism in the NT, which were given by the Holy Spirit, and commanded by Christ and His apostles, are just some pagan (demonic) ritual that God condemned in some obscure verse in Jeremiah (where was that again?), which was spoken to idolatrous Israel who actually was involved in pagan rituals.

You attribute the work of God to Satan. That is my understanding of the passage, and that is why I give you warning.

Now it is up to you to "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit" (Matt 12:33, 34).

Thus far you have borne corrupt fruit by claiming that NT instruction concerning baptism is of the devil.

Context extends beyond the immediate, sir. If I have misunderstood the passage and offered a poor argument, show it. I've been corrected before, and I will be again, I'm sure. As I said, that is my understanding of it, and my reason for warning you. I do so out of concern for your soul, not from any malicious intent.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[DHK]

Bmeer,
Before I point out the false accusations in the above post, and start reporting you to another administrator, do as I requested and save yourself a lot of grief.
If I have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit then show me from that passage which you have quoted how I have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. You must show me from that passage and not read your own presuppositions in from other Books of the Bible. Show me in context from the passage which deals with the sin of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." If you cannot do that you owe me an apology, and a retraction.
If you do not that I will take the matter up with the other moderators. Have I made myself clear.

Accusing another of blasphemy is a serious offence.
DHK

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Sirach:
How do you think we can know that we are not distorting the Scriptures?

We do the best we can with the limited knowlege we have, and do so humbly, prayerfully, and sincerly. God expects faithfulness. He does not expect perfection.

I've heard many people accuse others of twisting or distorting scriptures, how can we really know who is distorting them?

I think when it comes to clear doctrine, we must be diligent. However, when it comes to matters of interpretation (such as what day to call the sabbath, use of translations, women wearing pants, etc etc etc) we must allow persons the religious liberty and local autonomy to practice those interpretations as they feel called.

I read the scriptures and there are many other people that do also and yet we all read something different... how is this what Christ wanted?

Christ wanted us to enter into a relationship with our heavenly father. Jesus doesn't spend much time nitpicking a verse here or there. But, he does spend some time chastising the nitpickers.

Why are we divided when the Scriptures tell us not to be?

Because we allow ourselves to become congregationally and communally self-centered. It's a common problem in the church. I think Satan uses that as a tool to divide, and we fall for it every single time. I believe that the biggest enemy of the church is the church itself. Brother pitted against brother is the easiest way for Satan to divide and destroy.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by bmerr:
DHK,
You might even realize you're blaspheming the Holy Spirit by condemning baptism as a pagan ritual. You really need to stop doing that, sir.
In Christ,
bmerr

Bmerr, You point to a verse out of context. In it's full context:

Mark 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

BAPTISM, is the outward expression of the inward change and is one way we can confess our conversion before men.

Matt 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

DHK is NOT wrong in his explanation of the 'baptismal regeneration' heresy you and the other C of C members are purporting as truth.

He's also asked you to PROVE his 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' with SCRIPTURE, which you cannot do!

I ask you to refrain from such attacks and use of such words, as blasphemy, on our Moderators and members who disagree with your Church of Christ beliefs.

Diane

 

[DHK]

Matt 12:22-37 and Mark 3:22-30.
I am still waiting for a sutiable explanation of these verses Bmeer. Are you having a problem??
DHK

 

[RTG]

Can everyone agree that works,baptism are in vain if having not beleived first?Old or new test,it's beleiving not the physical act of baptism that saves.You all ever been in a dirt clod fight,if I started one I didn't mean to.Call it beleiving call it faith,when people start adding to it,it causes me to ask ?'s Johnv is right,but there's nothing wrong with asking?'s.O'Granny what long teeth you have,when did you grow a tail?

 

[D28guy]

bmerr,

Mike here. (sorry, couldnt resist)

You said...

"D28guy,

bmerr here. I'd have to disagree, sir. If the command to study was not needed, Scripture would not contain it.

Could you quote me where I ever said "studying is not needed". I may not *emphasise* that point as much as others due to my feeling that is just a given. It goes without saying that we study.

The significance of the command to study, coming from Paul, (who had the guidance of the Holy Spirit), to Timothy (and the rest of us), indicates that we would not have the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

Completly false. We MUST have the Holy Spirit opening our understanding to truth. If that were not the case, and all we needed to do was study, then everyone who studies the scriptures would come to the truth.

But thats not the case is it? Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, and many others study study study study study and yet they are overflowing with idolatry and heresy, and completly off base regarding foundational teachings.

In adition to the witness of what we see happening, we have the witness of God Himself...

* "Now we have recieved, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us from God. These things we speak, not in the wisdom which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. But the natural man does not recieve the things of God, for they are foolishness to him. Nor can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned."

* "And we know that the Son of God has come, and given us an understanding, that we might know Him who is true."

* " 'These are the words that I have spoken with you while I was still with you, that all things might be fullfilled which were written in Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms concerning me.' And He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the scriptures."

* "When He, the Holy Spirit has come, He will guide you into all truth."

And of course, the 1st 2 of those quotes make crystal clear that it appies to us as well as the aposttles.

The Spirit of God works through the word of God to convict men of sin, and convince men to become Christians. The word of God is the sword (tool)of the Spirit (Eph 6:17).

I agree completly. They work together.

The promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles, not to Christians of all time (John 14:25, 26).

"Then Peter said to them all, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. And you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call'."

If you have not recieved the Holy Spirit, bmerr, than you are still lost. Not one christian has ever been born again without the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

2 Tim 3:16, 17 tells us that the scriptures are all that is needed for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness, and are able to throughly furnish us unto all good works.

I agree completly! We do not need tradition in the least. The scriptures...and the scriptures alone, are our only truth standard.

But that is a completly different topic than what we are discussing.

The only thing required for our understanding of the Scriptures is an honest and good heart (Luke 8:15). Those with an honest and good heart are there identified as those who hear the word, and keep it, bringing forth fruit with patience.

Because the Holy Spirit opens their understanding to the truths found there.

God's word does not require divine intervention for us to understand it. Never has, never will.

* "Now we have recieved, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us from God. These things we speak, not in the wisdom which mans wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. But the natural man does not recieve the things of God, for they are foolishness to him. Nor can he know them, for they are sopiritually discerned."

* "And we know that the Son of God has come, and given us an understanding, that we might know Him who is true."

* " 'These are the words that I have spoken with you while I was still with you, that all things might be fullfilled which were written in Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms concerning me.' And He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the scriptures."

* "When He, the Holy Spirit has come, He will guide you into all truth."

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by bmerr:
DHK,

bmerr here. What authority you must think you have to impose such limitations! It's a wonder you don't reject more of the Bible, since it's writers didn't always keep to their immediate context, but referred to other Scriptures for support.

I don't put limitations on "rightly dividing the word of truth." But if you insist on reading into a passage of Scripture things that are not there, well, let's just say that is a mark of a cult. If you cannot give a proper exposition of Matt 12:22-37 and/or Mark 3:22-30, without going outside of these texts (since they are the only ones that talk of Jesus teaching of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit,"), then you are not rightly dividing the Word of truth, and have demonstrated to all that you have no idea what the meaning of the passage is, and how it relates to us today. It is the latter part that is important. How does it relate to us today? How can one commit "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" today? No one but Jesus spoke of this sin. Therefore you must confine yourself to Jesus's words. That is only proper hermeneutics.

Indeed the text in question does not mention or speak of baptism. It does, however, demonstrate the danger of attributing the work of God to Satan. I demonstrated my charge against you with these words:

If it doesn't mention baptism, don't draw baptism into the passage--again the mark of a cult. Reading into a passage things that are not there.

And then you come along, and proclaim that the instructions concerning baptism in the NT, which were given by the Holy Spirit, and commanded by Christ and His apostles, are just some pagan (demonic) ritual that God condemned in some obscure verse in Jeremiah (where was that again?), which was spoken to idolatrous Israel who actually was involved in pagan rituals.

This is a false accusation. I never said that baptism, per se, not important. I never said that baptism, per se, was a pagan ritual. Why are you accusing me of such? The Hindu belief, that the waters of the Ganges river washes away sin is a superstition that a pagan cult believes. You believe the same. You believe that water (i.e. baptism) washes away sin. You believe that baptism is a part of salvation--baptismal regeneration. I didn't say baptism was not important, but rather that baptismal regeneration is a heresy, a pagan superstition akin to the pagan belief of Hinduism, and I stand by my words.

You attribute the work of God to Satan. That is my understanding of the passage, and that is why I give you warning.

Are you God? Who are you to warn me?
First this is another false accusation.
I never attributed a work of God to Satan.
Why? Baptism is not a work of God. If it is, when did God baptize you? Jesus walked this earth 2,000 years ago. Are you 2,000 years old? Can you point to a time in your life when Jesus in his physical body baptized you? NO! Man baptized you. It is the work of man. A man was the baptizer, and a man was the recipient of the baptism. The whole process was done by man. It is not a work of God. To claim such a work as a work of God is gross error, and in fact is heresy. It is a work of man. Baptism does nothing but get you wet. It is a step of obedience in the Christian life, after salvation, done in obedience to the command of Christ.

Now it is up to you to "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit" (Matt 12:33, 34).

The tree is made good by salvation. One is saved by trusting Christ as Saviour. There is nothing about baptism here. The thief on the cross was saved without baptism, as was the jailor in Acts 16:31, and the Ethiopian Eunuch. They simply called upon the name of the Lord, and were saved.

Thus far you have borne corrupt fruit by claiming that NT instruction concerning baptism is of the devil.

Another false accusation. You seem to have a good many in this post. I never said that baptism is of the devil. Please point to the statement where I have, or withdraw the statement.

Context extends beyond the immediate, sir. If I have misunderstood the passage and offered a poor argument, show it. I've been corrected before, and I will be again, I'm sure. As I said, that is my understanding of it, and my reason for warning you. I do so out of concern for your soul, not from any malicious intent.

Your accusations have been very malicious. Just read your above posts. You have made many false accusations. You just accused me falsely, without any reason of saying that baptism of is of the devil. Shall I call you a liar? You did. Why the slander and the lies? If this were on another board in another place you could be sued for the statements that you are making against me.

But instead I will await an explanation of Matt 12:22-37 and/or Mark 3:22-30. If you cannot explain what "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is from these Scriptures, then apologize and retract your statements.

False allegations are against the rules on BB.
DHK

[ July 09, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by DHK:

Accusing another of blasphemy is a serious offence.
DHK

DHK,

bmerr here. I've done nothing that you haven't done to me and others already. I just made the charge outright. Myself and others have shown from the Bible that baptism for the remission of sins is a requirement for salvation under the New Testament. In response you have claimed that such doctrine is a "pagan superstition" derived from Hinduism. For a Christian to introduce "pagan tradition" as Bible doctrine would indeed be heresy.

In effect, you have accused me and others of heresy, which is right on track with blasphemy. You are as guilty as you say I am.

If you don't want to answer the charge, then let it pass. I've not misused the text in giving you warning. The text teaches a principle, that being that attributing the work of God to Satan is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The Bible commands baptism for the remission of sins. The Bible is God's book. You say that baptism for the remission of sins is pagan. You say that baptism for the remission of sins is of the devil. You should substantiate your claim or retract it.

I've stated my case as plainly as I know how. If it's more than you can grasp, I can't help you.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[SouthernBoy]

D28Guy,

Regarding,

How do you think we can know that we are not distorting the Scriptures?

The Bible is clear on how we can know. St. Paul tells us in Ephesians 3:8-10

To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light [for all] 5 what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things, 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens.

Thus, the Church is the Holy Apostolic Catholic Orthodox Church. The same that was there in Pentecost is still with us today.

You can learn more by going here: Finding the New Testament Church. I suggest you read it.

Do not be led astray by Mormons, Jehov Witness, Baptist. Read the Bible it is clear.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by bmerr:

Originally posted by DHK:

Accusing another of blasphemy is a serious offence.
DHK

DHK,

bmerr here. I've done nothing that you haven't done to me and others already. I just made the charge outright. Myself and others have shown from the Bible that baptism for the remission of sins is a requirement for salvation under the New Testament. [/quoted]
You have claimed it, but not demonstrated it. There is a difference.

In response you have claimed that such doctrine is a "pagan superstition" derived from Hinduism. For a Christian to introduce "pagan tradition" as Bible doctrine would indeed be heresy.

To say that water washes away sin is a pagan heresy, and nothing less. The Bible teaches no such thing, and you have done nothing to refute that statement but call me names. Instead of calling me names use the Bible to refute what I said.

In effect, you have accused me and others of heresy, which is right on track with blasphemy. You are as guilty as you say I am.

You do beleive in heresy. I have stated it. It is up to you, using Scripture (not name-calling and innuendo) to prove that it is not).

If you don't want to answer the charge, then let it pass. I've not misused the text in giving you warning. The text teaches a principle, that being that attributing the work of God to Satan is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Why are you unable to use the text to prove to me that I have committed the charge you have accused me of--blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I await your apology until you are able to do so. You don't know what the passage means do you? You are unable to apply it or make it relevant to today? You are making false allegations, without any warrant. You use this text out of its context, making it a pretext to say anything you want. Use it in its context and explan what it means and how it applies to us today. Or else apologize and don't use it all.

The Bible commands baptism for the remission of sins. The Bible is God's book. You say that baptism for the remission of sins is pagan. You say that baptism for the remission of sins is of the devil. You should substantiate your claim or retract it.

You quote the verses that teach such damnable heresies and then we will deal with them one at a time. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable heresy. You believe in it. You demonstrate it from Scripture.

I've stated my case as plainly as I know how. If it's more than you can grasp, I can't help you.

You have demonstrated nothing, except that you do not know how to expound the Scriptures and rightly divide the Word of truth; and that you are very adept at name calling and making false allegations; and that you cannot demonstrate the heresy that you believe in to be true.

So what have you proved--nothing!
DHK

 

[dianetavegia]

bmerr, you said: heresy is right on track with blasphemy.

WRONG! I'd suggest you study the scripture DHK has shared concerning blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and then compare it to heresy.

bmerr also said:

Myself and others have shown from the Bible that baptism for the remission of sins is a requirement for salvation under the New Testament.

Wrong again! You and another Church of Christer took some scripture out of context to try and add to scriptural requirements for salvation.

What is Heresy?

Heresy can be defined as any departure from Christian orthodoxy which is a teaching, doctrine or practice that goes beyond the apostles teachings -- the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).Biblical heresy is often a denial of the core beliefs held in the Church that are founded on the Bible. In this sense it applies to groups which reject basic Christian doctrines and separate themselves from the historic church.

It can be defined as the over-emphasis of a neglected truth or a truth elevated to an extreme were it can no longer be recognized as biblical. Heresy can also originate from a new revelation or prophesy, which is often the most dangerous source of all. A divisive teaching or practice from inside the Church can be more destructive to genuine faith than one from the outside. The epistle of Jude warns of this.

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent38.htm

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by DHK:
[QB]

To say that water washes away sin is a pagan heresy, and nothing less. The Bible teaches no such thing, and you have done nothing to refute that statement but call me names. Instead of calling me names use the Bible to refute what I said.

bmerr here. At what time did I say that water washes away sins? Not once. The Bible does not teach it, and I have not said it. I don't have to refute a statement I didn't make.

What names have I called you, sir? I have been called names on other sites, and I know it's not fun. I wouldn't do it to another.

Here's some Bible to refute your postion that baptism for the remission of sins is "pagan tradition".

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 6:17, 18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

You do beleive in heresy. I have stated it. It is up to you, using Scripture (not name-calling and innuendo) to prove that it is not).

The offered verses of Scripture prove that it is not. If you'd like to show from Scripture that it is pagan in origin, do so.

Why are you unable to use the text to prove to me that I have committed the charge you have accused me of--blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I await your apology until you are able to do so. You don't know what the passage means do you? You are unable to apply it or make it relevant to today? You are making false allegations, without any warrant. You use this text out of its context, making it a pretext to say anything you want. Use it in its context and explan what it means and how it applies to us today. Or else apologize and don't use it all.

I have demonstrated the principle (repeatedly) that giving Satan credit for God's work is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The text in Mark 3 and Matt 12 show it quite clearly. What do I have to do, find your name in the text?

You have repeatedly made the statement that the idea of baptism for the remission of sins is pagan in origin, and yet you have not substantiated your claim with Scripture. I have given Scripture to support my postion. Where's yours? You should substantiate your claim or retract it.

You quote the verses that teach such damnable heresies and then we will deal with them one at a time. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable heresy. You believe in it. You demonstrate it from Scripture.

Again, for the record, let me state my position: The Bible commands baptism for the remission of sins as a requirement for salvation under the New Testament. I have demonstrated this teaching from Scripture.

If you disagree with this position, show the Scriptures that you think support you.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
You and another Church of Christer took some scripture out of context to try and add to scriptural requirements for salvation.

Ma'am, who is "Christer"? I know of no such person. That aside, exactly which Scriptures were taken out of context, and which requirements for salvation did we add?

What is Heresy?

Heresy can be defined as any departure from Christian orthodoxy which is a teaching, doctrine or practice that goes beyond the apostles teachings -- the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).Biblical heresy is often a denial of the core beliefs held in the Church that are founded on the Bible. In this sense it applies to groups which reject basic Christian doctrines and separate themselves from the historic church.

It can be defined as the over-emphasis of a neglected truth or a truth elevated to an extreme were it can no longer be recognized as biblical. Heresy can also originate from a new revelation or prophesy, which is often the most dangerous source of all. A divisive teaching or practice from inside the Church can be more destructive to genuine faith than one from the outside. The epistle of Jude warns of this.

Nice comments on heresy, Ma'am. So basically herresy is claiming Divine origin for something demonic. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is claiming demonic origin for something Divine. I'd say those are on the same line.

Truth is divisive, Ma'am. Jesus Himself said that He came not to bring peace, but division (Luke 12:51-53), even to the point of dividing families. Anything that is not truth is false. There is a dividing line.

The Scriptures say that baptism is for the remission, or washing away of sins. DHK says it is not. He has divided himself from the truth. It's not my fault, I just pointed it out.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[BobRyan]

Again, for the record, let me state my position: The Bible commands baptism for the remission of sins as a requirement for salvation under the New Testament. I have demonstrated this teaching from Scripture.

If you disagree with this position, show the Scriptures that you think support you.

#1. Is the gift of the Holy Spirit (Tongues prophecy etc) given to the saved or the unsaved?

The forgiven or the lost?

The born-again or the unregenerate?

#2. Was the Theif on the Cross ever saved? Forgiven? Born again? A saint?

#3. When does a lost person appeal to God for forgiveness, a clean conscience, a new life?

Do they pray and study the Bible without ever asking God for forgiveness or a clean conscience until AFTER they reach the point of Baptism??

#4. What is the "depravity" described in Romans 3? What does it "prevent"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[dianetavegia]

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


--------------------------------------------------
NEITHER of those verses claim water baptism saves. Neither! To say so is to empty the cross of its power!
I submit, resubmit these:

Mark 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."


BAPTISM, is the outward expression of the inward change and is one way we can confess our conversion before men.

Matt 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Galatians 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

BLASPHEMY

But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit (twi de eiß to agion pneuma blasphmhsanti).

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


Speak against the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


Luke 12:10 And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

 

[bmerr]

dianetavegia,

Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


--------------------------------------------------
NEITHER of those verses claim water baptism saves. Neither! To say so is to empty the cross of its power!

bmerr here. Howso? The fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world does not mean that everyone will be saved. It means that everyone can be saved.

The power for salvation is still there. Simply accepting the facts of the gospel saves no one. My wife and children all acknowledge the facts of the gospel, but none of them has become a Christian.

In purchasing freedom from sin for the world, Jesus also was given the authority to determine the conditions of pardon for sinners who wanted to enter the kingdom. Those "keys to the kingdom" (Matt 16:19) were given to Peter, and he gave them in Acts 2:38 to those who believed the message.

No, Ma'am, baptism does not diminish the power of the cross. Without the cross, baptism would mean nothing at all.

As far as baptism being "the outward expression of the inward change and is one way we can confess our conversion before men", I can agree with that to a point, but it's not exactly supported with Scripture. What I mean is that there is never any command to "be baptized to confess your faith before men". I agree with the sentiment, but it's just not why men were commanded to be baptized.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[dianetavegia]

My wife and children all acknowledge the facts of the gospel, but none of them has become a Christian.

I'm very sorry to hear this but will be more than honored to pray for their salvation!

 

[bmerr]

Bob,

bmerr here. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you until now. I'm playing catch-up.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. Is the gift of the Holy Spirit (Tongues prophecy etc) given to the saved or the unsaved?

The forgiven or the lost?

The born-again or the unregenerate?

It's not given to anyone in any miraculous sense these days, sir. If you're referring to Cornelius and household, may I refer you to the "Sinner's prayer" board, and my response to StefanM (page 3, I think)? In summary, let me say that the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and them to convince the Jewish brethren who had come with Peter that the Gentiles were to have the gospel preached to them, not to demonstrate that they were already saved.

#2. Was the Theif on the Cross ever saved? Forgiven? Born again? A saint?

Saved? Yes. Forgiven? Yes. A saint? Yes.

Born again under the New Testament? No. Jesus had not yet died, and so the New Testament could not yet be in force (Heb 9:16, 17). The thief was saved under the Old Testament.

#3. When does a lost person appeal to God for forgiveness, a clean conscience, a new life?

1 Pet 3:21 says, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

That word "answer" is eperotema, which means "an inquiry". It comes from the word eperotao, which means "to ask for, i.e. inquire, seek;-as (after, questions), demand, desire, question."

The ASV (1901) translates it as "interrogation", with a marginal reading of "inquiry, or appeal".

I'd say that it is in baptism, where one's sins are washed away (not by the water, but by the submission to God's command) that a person appeals to God for a good conscience, for it is sin that soils the conscience, while dirt soils the flesh.

Do they pray and study the Bible without ever asking God for forgiveness or a clean conscience until AFTER they reach the point of Baptism??

I'm sure that many a penitent soul has asked God to forgive them before they have been baptized. I can find nothing in Scripture that would indicate that God would grant that request short of one doing what He has commanded, though.

#4. What is the "depravity" described in Romans 3? What does it "prevent"??

Did you mean Romans 3? I'm not sure what you are referring to. It's probably quite obvious to you, but I'm missing it.

In Christ,

bmerr