Divine Law that justifies condemning just for unjust

[The Biblicist]

There are four sections of scripture I want to deal with in regard to the question found in the OP.

1. Ezek. 18
2. Rom. 5:12-19
3. Leviticus
4. Gen. 1-2

A. Ezek. 18 deals with "fathers" and "children" who are equally fallen human beings equally condemned under law as sinners. Hence, neither can be held accountable for the others sins as both are equally condemned under the very same divine justice. In direct contrast both Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 are dealing with two specific men who are sinless uncondemned men (Adam, Christ) who can and did act as representatives for others. To claim Ezekiel 18 as a model to disprove that qualified men can legally act as representatives for others as in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 is abuse of scripture.

B. Romans 5:17-19 repeatedly states over and over that it was "by one man's disobedience" that "many" became legally viewed as "dead....condemned.....made sinners" which is the direct opposite of Ezekiel 18 demonstrating the legal context that governs Ezekiel 18 is not the legal context that governs Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19. What is explicitly condemned in Ezekiel 18 as unjust is explicitly approved in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 as perfectly in keeping with divine justice.

C. Leviticus as well as all previous examples of sacrificial law - thus divine law - Does not suggest but absolutely DEMANDS that only what is symbolic of a JUST person can legally and lawfully take the position of the sinner with his sins on the altar (symbolic of God's place of administrating divine justice upon sinners with their sins).

Hence, Divine Law not merely requires but demands that a JUST person is the only LEGALLY FIT person to represent sinners with regard to all legal consequences for sin. Denial of this principle "just for the unjust" with regard to the legal consequences of sins is denial of the very heart of the gospel and any gospel that includes such a denial is "another gospel" and those preaching/teaching it are to be treated and regarded as "accursed" whether or not that correctly identifies their true spiritual state.

 

[The Biblicist]

There are four sections of scripture I want to deal with in regard to the question found in the OP.

1. Ezek. 18
2. Rom. 5:12-19
3. Leviticus
4. Gen. 1-2

A. Ezek. 18 deals with "fathers" and "children" who are equally fallen human beings equally condemned under law as sinners. Hence, neither can be held accountable for the others sins as both are equally condemned under the very same divine justice. In direct contrast both Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 are dealing with two specific men who are sinless uncondemned men (Adam, Christ) who can and did act as representatives for others. To claim Ezekiel 18 as a model to disprove that qualified men can legally act as representatives for others as in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 is abuse of scripture.

B. Romans 5:17-19 repeatedly states over and over that it was "by one man's disobedience" that "many" became legally viewed as "dead....condemned.....made sinners" which is the direct opposite of Ezekiel 18 demonstrating the legal context that governs Ezekiel 18 is not the legal context that governs Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19. What is explicitly condemned in Ezekiel 18 as unjust is explicitly approved in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 as perfectly in keeping with divine justice.

C. Leviticus as well as all previous examples of sacrificial law - thus divine law - Does not suggest but absolutely DEMANDS that only what is symbolic of a JUST person can legally and lawfully take the position of the sinner with his sins on the altar (symbolic of God's place of administrating divine justice upon sinners with their sins).

Hence, Divine Law not merely requires but demands that a JUST person is the only LEGALLY FIT person to represent sinners with regard to all legal consequences for sin. Denial of this principle "just for the unjust" with regard to the legal consequences of sins is denial of the very heart of the gospel and any gospel that includes such a denial is "another gospel" and those preaching/teaching it are to be treated and regarded as "accursed" whether or not that correctly identifies their true spiritual state.

The altar, characterized by fire, and death of a qualfied sacrifice and especially in the case the altar in the tabernacle and temple made of brass symbolizes the PLACE where divine justice is excuted against sinners with their sins and the cross is the antitype of that altar.

Divine justice against sinners with their sins is defined by the Law of God. The "condemnation" against sinners with their sins is defined in the types, in leviticus and in Isaiah 53 to include "suffering" and "death" whereby God's justice is satisfied:

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Note the words "offering for sin" demonstrating the Levitical backdrop for this chapter or based upon DIVINE LAW .

 

[The Biblicist]

Under Levitical Sacrificial law the death on the altar represented the sentence of death prescribed by divine law against sin. This is simple to prove. In Leviticus and elsewhere when Israel sinned against God, God would punish their sin by death, by going among Israel and killing them and it is only when censors with coals taken from the altar came among them did God stop killing them, or only when a sacrifice was killed upon the altar did God stop killing them for their sins.

So, death is the LEGAL PENALTY against sin according to DIVINE JUSTICE and divine justice is revealed symbolically in Leviticus, literally in the Law of God. Hence, Genesis 2:17 prescibes death as the just penalty for sin. Condemnation under the law is in keeping with God's justice.

The Law of God is not contrary to the Holiness or love of God as the Leviticual law provides harmony between both in the sacrifice at the altar where mercy and justice meet.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those who oppose these simply easy revelations from scripture do so by a show of "scholarship" which is nothing but perverting Biblical terms, twisting and deny the plain sense of scripture and reading into the Bible traditions of men.

The Jewish preists who worked every day in the tabernacle/temple saw these truths clearly set before their eyes every single day in simple and clear symbols which were designed by God to reveal God's just basis for dealing with sinners and sins in what symbolized a JUST man dying as a legally qualified representative for sinners and their sins according to divine justice where God's penalty against sinners with their sins was administered upon the brass altar, flames of fire and death of the sacrifice.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Levitical laws spelled out in the book of Leviticus is the revelation of DIVINE JUSTICE against sinners and sin in symbolic form. This is the whole basis for DIVINE JUSTICE revealed to us in order to properly understand the full meaning of the atonement.

Confusing the consequential application of the atonement with the essence of the atonement is as much a serious error as confusing the new birth with its consequential applications but this is precisely what those who deny Penal Substitutionary Atonement must do in order to avoid the clear explicit teaching of scriptures.

The love of God is rooted in the holiness of God/divine justice and not vice versa. God's love is not sloppy agape but HOLY and consistent with divine justice.

The Christus Victor view logically denies the cross/need of death to satisfy divine justice. The views that deny the consistency of the LAW of God with the LOVE of God logically deny the cross of Christ/need of death to satisfy divine justice.

Those systems based upon denying the consistency of God's Law with God's love in their view of the atonement not only logically deny the cross of Christ (thus deny the gospel) but are based upon confusing the COMPLETED ACT of atonement with its PROGRESSIVE applications.

 

[The Biblicist]

Accusing advocates of the Biblical doctrine (PSA) of reading traditions into scripture is simply an EXCUSE to avoid doing the hard work of exegesis which provides PROOF of their accusation as it is nothing but an EMPTY accusation until demonstrated by Scripture.

Their view is a denial of scriptures because it perverts the scriptures by eisgesis, which can be shown to be eisgesis.

 

[The Biblicist]

Leviticus 1:3 ¶ If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

The hardest error to refute is the kind that denies the obvious. It is like Democrat Shifft after Mueller says there is NOTHING to support the idea that President Trump conspired with the Russians and then what does Shifft say, "we have evidence". What can you say in return what has not been already clearly laid out in the clearest possible language? This is the case with those who oppose PSA - they deny the obvious.

For example, it does not take a lot of brilliance or scholarship to see the plain and obvious sense of the words found in bold and underlined above! It is obvious that the animal is a substitute for the sinner. He "shall put his hand upon the head" a simply and clear symbol of identity with the animal acting as a LEGAL SUBSTITUTE for him in regard to his own "sins". The animal pays the penalty for his sins by sacrificing his own life in the place of the sinner because of his sins.

Lev. 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron’s sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Death is the consequence for his sins suffered by his legal substitute. Death is the penalty for his sins. This is repeated over and over and over and over throughout the book of Leviticus which is God's DIVINE LAW for atonement. To argue that death is not the PENALTY for sin is simply denying the obvious!

 

[loDebar]

Four pages to contradict your own posts

Ezekiel 18 contradicts your version of Romans 5

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

What sin did I get from my father? what righteousness can I have on my account because of his righteousness?

 

[The Biblicist]

Numb. 16:44 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces.
46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.

The People sinned against God and God went among them and starting killing them because of their sin. Notice, their death is due to the "wrath gone out from the Lord." Hence, the wrath of God against sin is DEATH.

Notice, that making an atonement is what satisfied God's wrath against their sin. This proves that the death of the sacrifice symbolizes the death of the sinner THAT SATISFIES THE WRATH OF GOD.

 

[loDebar]

I reject what it says, You application of scripture is biased into error.

We are condemned and worthy of Hell ALREADY. Action of sin does not bring death, you are already on death row.

You try to claim OT scripture as your own, when it does not apply to you and you would rather rather embrace legalism than scriptuire

 

[The Biblicist]

I reject what it says, You application of scripture is biased into error.

We are condemned and worthy of Hell ALREADY. Action of sin does not bring death, you are already on death row.

You try to claim OT scripture as your own, when it does not apply to you and you would rather rather embrace legalism than scriptuire

Try to deal with the evidence presented. You simply ignore every argument I set forth. Yes, you reject the arguments but you don't give any reasons to support why you reject the arguments.

How can this be a discussion when you simply ignore the evidence that your view is wrong and simply expect us to take your word without providing any evidence for your rejections????

 

[loDebar]

you reject scripture, to form your arguments
you have proven to ignore posts and scripture as you do here.


We do not die because of new sin but because we sinned already. e are already on death row.
You conflate the Law to Israel as a command to Christians, A double error

 

[The Biblicist]

you reject scripture, to form your arguments
you have proven to ignore posts and scripture as you do here.


We do not die because of new sin but because we sinned already. e are already on death row.
You conflate the Law to Israel as a command to Christians, A double error

Ok, friend! You refuse to address the OP and so I am placing you back on ignore.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ezekiel 18 is under Mosaic Law and deals with individuals who are equal under that law because they are equally condemned by it and therefore no person has any superior position or advantage under Law as both are equally condemned as sinners. So, children cannot be imputed the sins of their fathers or vice versa because the father is equally condemned under law as is the children and vice versa.

However, Adam and Christ are being viewed as legal representatives in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 in behalf of others. As representatives they can and do act as representives for others and their actions result in consequences. This is proven by the repetition of "by one man.....many be condemned....be dead....made sinners." Condemnation, death, and made sinners is not attributed to their own actions but to a singular action. Adam's sin can be imparted to his posterity through natural birth as much as Christ's righteousness can be imparted to his posterity through new birth.

So, to confuse Ezekiel 18 and the "fathers" who are condemned under sin with prefallen Adam or Christ as acting in a legal representative capacity for others is simply not proper exegesis.

 

[The Biblicist]

Four pages to contradict your own posts

Ezekiel 18 contradicts your version of Romans 5

Give you another chance to be reasonable.

1. Do you agree that Ezekiel is dealing with those condemned as sinners under the law after the fall of man? Yes or no?

2. Do you agree that Adam was sinless prior to the fall? Yes or No?

3. Do you agree that Christ was sinless? Yes or No?

4. do you agree that Ezekiel is talking about two sinners that cannot charge their own sins to another sinner? Yes or no?

5. Do you agree that Adam (in Geneis 1-2)and Christ are not being viewed as sinners or as mere individual's but in Romans 5:12-19 are being viewed as legal representatives acting in behalf of others? Yes or No?

6. Do you agree that Paul repeatedly states that "one man" and his singular act of sin is responsible for "condemnation...death....made sinners" for many instead of their own actions being responsible for these things (Rom. 5:17-19)? Yes or No?

7. Do you agree that Paul repeatedly states that one man - Jesus Christ" and his obedience and death is responsible for the justification for "many" rather than than the actions by many? Yes or no?

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

What sin did I get from my father? what righteousness can I have on my account because of his righteousness?

You can't get sin or righteousness from SINNERS which is what Ezekiel is talking about.

You can be charged sin and righteousness by those who are set apart as SINLESS representatives for others which is what Romans is talking about.

 

[The Biblicist]

Death = Wrath against Sin


Nu 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.

The symbolism is clear. The preisthood symbolizes Christ as Mediator between God and men. The tabernacle is where God's presence is manifest in the holy of holiest. Apart from a Mediator between God and man the "wrath" of God would manifest itself in their death. Thus, death is penal, it is manifestation of God's wrath that needs a Mediator.

Nu 8:19 And I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the children of Israel, to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation, and to make an atonement for the children of Israel: that there be no plague among the children of Israel, when the children of Israel come nigh unto the sanctuary.

Nu 11:33 And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.

Nu 18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.

Le 10:6 And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which the LORD hath kindled.

1Ch 27:24 Joab the son of Zeruiah began to number, but he finished not, because there fell wrath for it against Israel; neither was the number put in the account of the chronicles of king David.


Ps 106:29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.

God's wrath against sin is manifested in what results in death = wrath - The death of the sacrifice satisfied God's wrath against sinners because of their sins.

Numb. 16:44 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces.
46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.
47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.
48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.

CONCLUSION: The atonement for sinners was the DEATH of the sacrifice and it is this DEATH that satisfied God's wrath against sinners. The Atonement is the satisfaction of God's wrath against sinners as DEATH removes the condemnation of the law. This is Paul's argument in Romans 7:1-5. By the DEAD body of Christ we are no longer under the law which means the DEAD body of Christ was necessary to satisfy the Law's penalty against sinners.

 

[The Biblicist]

Isa. 53:4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah is describing the atonement by Christ in keeping with the DIVINE LAW of atonement found in Leviticus in the sin offering. Indeed, he ues the very words "offering for sin" in verse 10, and protrays him as a "lamb" being led to the slaughter or death on the altar/cross.

Isaiah explains this atonement as a satisfaction of God's wrath against sinners in the death of Christ. In spite of being sinless ("he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth" - v. 9), "YET it PLEASED the Lord to bruise him" and "he shall see of the TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL, and SHALL BE SATISFIED." (vv. 10-11).

He is sinless, but yet justifably our sin bearer ("he shall bear their iniquities" - v. 11) thus a SUBSTITUTE in the LEGAL place where he suffered divine wrath in our behald by his death. It is LEGAL penal substition because it is "the Lord hath laid upon him the iniquity of us all". Thus it is in perfect harmony with God's holiness and Justness to make him suffer and die for sinners to satisfy his wrath against sin.

In previous posts we have proven that killing of the sacrifice on the altar is symbolically synonymous with the literal killing of people by God due to God's wrath against sinners and that the atonement satisfies HIS WRATH and stops LITERAL killing of people due to wrath against sinners due to sin. This is Penal Substitutionary Atonement as explicit and clear as one can make it.

Divine Justice does not contradict the "just" dying for the "unjust" any more than it contradicts a previously just representative condemning his entire posterity by his singular sin. Hence, justice is not contradicted by the just dying for the unjust as their representative so that his actions are imparted to his posterity any more than the singular sin of Adam being imparted to his posterity with all of its consequences.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thank you, @The Biblicist Absolutely correct!
Just one additional point. In Hebrews 7:22, Christ is described as the 'Surety' or 'Guarantor' of the New Covenant..
A surety is someone who promises to pay the debts of someone if that person is unable to pay. Hence, 'When we were helpless [deep in debt to God for our sins and unable to pay] in due time Christ died for then ungodly' (Romans 5:6). There are several warnings in Proverbs (eg. 6:1-5) against becoming a surety for someone, since the law will then proceed against you as if you yourself were the debtor. But Christ, the sinless one, has taken all our sins upon Himself and paid the debt for them in full as if they were His own.

 

[Reformed]

@The Biblicist , my apologies if I am covering ground you touched on in your previous posts.

Ezekiel 18 deals with evil, righteousness, righteousness following evil, and evil following righteousness. The death and life spoken of in this chapter is physical in nature, although there are strong overtones of eternal disposition. When we look at the blessings and cursing of the Law (Deuteronomy 28), we learn that they are dependent on keeping or breaking the Law. It was possible for someone under the Old Covenant to keep the outward requirements of the Law but not be a spiritual child of Abraham. Under the New Covenant keeping the outward requirements of the Law has no value because Christ fulfilled those requirements on our behalf. Part of those requirements was the sacrificial system. Unlike animals which were temporal creatures and could never eternally atone for sin, Jesus is an eternal being who did eternally atone for sin. The types and shadows of the Old Covenant are clearly revealed in the New Covenant.

 

[loDebar]

Eze 18:1¶
The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

This has NOTHING to do with the LAW , this is extra and straight from God. repeatedly in Ezekiel
The standard of conduct is the Law but this is addition to Ezekiel

strike one


Adam is not responsible for your sin

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:19
¶
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

strike two

The Law is complete, As you say but you try to apply again in your argument as a repetition of the Law. It was written to Israel who lived between Moses and Jesus, period. It was given to sustain Israel as a nation for the Messiah. Most of it is civil and the portion spiritual is keep Israel correct to the Lord.

physical death has NOTHING to do with spiritual death. Many are spiritually dead while living, This is a place for the spiritual dead

Luk 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. T=

You either don't understand the difference, conflating the OT civil penalties physical death and spiritually dead reference in the NT.

Are you simply trying to prove death is appropriate for those who break divine or written Law? and Jesus was that death to satisfy the Law.?

We were condemned to spiritual death before the Law was given.. We were not condemned as a man but we are worthy and condemned to death.

The physical death of Jesus does not pay the price for sin. Jesus suffered the spiritual death, or separation from God to py for total SIN. We can share in this since we are humans as well.

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;