Divine Law that justifies condemning just for unjust

[Martin Marprelate]

you have it, but now put it all together, Satan is judged, we are condemned already also, but won't be judged by Jesus again as flesh, but we will be judged again . after death, but without as flesh or being a man

Really?

So our condemnation has nothing to do with Adam's sin, We sin and are responsible for our own sin ans condemnation.
Being Human is so we can share in the death of Christ as a Human to be saved from this condemnation.
God suffered the penalty as a spiritual being but as human we share in His death

Sorry, but Romans 5:12-21 is quite specific. Try verses 17.

 

[loDebar]

yes, but realize it is a double comparison.
Are all men saved through Christ ? or did He make a method whereby men can willingly participate..?
The same with Adam, whereby sin came into the physical world , men willingly act because we are sinners
Because we are sinners we suffer death.

Adam physical death compares Christ spiritual life, both show many affected by one's actions

We suffer the same fate of Adam because we are both sinners, not because of Adam but we were condemned with Adam

 

[loDebar]

I have been watching a week of Time Team straight

 

[The Biblicist]

Are all men saved through Christ ? or did He make a method whereby men can willingly participate..?

So, do you believe in justification by works? So how do you participate with Christ paying the penalty of sin on the cross? How do you participate with Christ living a sinless life? Those are the two platforms that justification is established - what he did FOR us not what WE do?

Our individual experience of Adam comes by NATURAl BIRTH and our individual experience of Christ comes by NEW BIRTH.

 

[loDebar]

good deflection into new subject.

We accept Grace and exercise the gift of Faith by believing with our hearts, We cannot earn Salvation by works
Jesus took the penalty , God suffered the separation from God due to Sin. We can share in His death as human because we share His blood or Humanity

Adam gave you physical death and the curse, not because of Adam's sin or through Adam but because we are sinners just like Adam. We share the same fate, We were created as individual spiritual beings and must be pardoned as individuals .

We only believe with our hearts, the spiritual part of us that sins

 

[The Biblicist]

yes, but realize it is a double comparison.
Are all men saved through Christ ? or did He make a method whereby men can willingly participate..?

So, are you saying you believe in justification by works? This passage is dealing with what condemned all men "in Adam" as opposed to what justified all men "in Christ." Did you participate with Christ in providing justification? Did you get on the cross with Christ to pay the sin debt? Did you live a sinless life that would justify you before God as righteous?

We participate with Adam in sin as individuals by being "born of the flesh" and we participate with Christ in righteousness by being "born of the Spirit."

 

[loDebar]

So, are you saying you believe in justification by works? This passage is dealing with what condemned all men "in Adam" as opposed to what justified all men "in Christ." Did you participate with Christ in providing justification? Did you get on the cross with Christ to pay the sin debt? Did you live a sinless life that would justify you before God as righteous?

We participate with Adam in sin as individuals by being "born of the flesh" and we participate with Christ in righteousness by being "born of the Spirit."

I did not say "justification by works" at all.

are you going by a template or something?

You participate WITH Adam because you are a condemned sinner, not because if Adam's actions because if yours. You might suffer the physical curse because of Adam,
Human blood was on the cross.

How many are justified by one human sinless life?

 

[The Biblicist]

I did not say "justification by works" at all.

However, Romans 5:12-19 is about the primary cause for condemnation of all in Adam and justification for all in Christ. It is about the ROOT SOURCE. Romans 5:12 gives you the ROOT SOURCE for entrance of sin and death into the world. Romans 5:15-19 gives you the ROOT SOURCE for condemnation for all in Adam and it is not due to "MANY SINS BY MANY" as your doctrine demands but it repeatedly states "by one man's disobedience many" be dead, be condemned be made sinners. Your doctrine demands it should read "by many men's disobediences many be dead, condemned, made sinners" BUT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT DOES IT?

 

[The Biblicist]

There are four sections of scripture I want to deal with in regard to the question found in the OP.

1. Ezek. 18
2. Rom. 5:12-19
3. Leviticus
4. Gen. 1-2

A. Ezek. 18 deals with "fathers" and "children" who are equally fallen human beings equally condemned under law as sinners. Hence, neither can be held accountable for the others sins as both are equally condemned under the very same divine justice. In direct contrast both Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 are dealing with two specific men who are sinless uncondemned men (Adam, Christ) who can and did act as representatives for others. To claim Ezekiel 18 as a model to disprove that qualified men can legally act as representatives for others as in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 is abuse of scripture.

B. Romans 5:17-19 repeatedly states over and over that it was "by one man's disobedience" that "many" became legally viewed as "dead....condemned.....made sinners" which is the direct opposite of Ezekiel 18 demonstrating the legal context that governs Ezekiel 18 is not the legal context that governs Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19. What is explicitly condemned in Ezekiel 18 as unjust is explicitly approved in Genesis 1-2 and Romans 5:12-19 as perfectly in keeping with divine justice.

C. Leviticus as well as all previous examples of sacrificial law - thus divine law - Does not suggest but absolutely DEMANDS that only what is symbolic of a JUST person can legally and lawfully take the position of the sinner with his sins on the altar (symbolic of God's place of administrating divine justice upon sinners with their sins).

Hence, Divine Law not merely requires but demands that a JUST person is the only LEGALLY FIT person to represent sinners with regard to all legal consequences for sin. Denial of this principle "just for the unjust" with regard to the legal consequences of sins is denial of the very heart of the gospel and any gospel that includes such a denial is "another gospel" and those preaching/teaching it are to be treated and regarded as "accursed" whether or not that correctly identifies their true spiritual state.

Here is the bottom line Gentleman for all of you who disagree with my assesment above. Your view requires Paul to say and to mean that condemnation, death, made sinners for MANY were due to MANY MENS SINS! That is the bottom line for your position and denial of my position!

However, the Biblical text does not say your position, does not mean your position but over and over it says that death, condemnation FOR MANY being made sinners all occured by ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENT ACTION. Not by many mens disobediences but by ONE MAN's DISOBEDIENCE.

So, any arguement you present, or any intepretation you give of Romans 5:12-19 THAT DEMANDS MANY MEN'S SINS ARE WHAT MAKE MANY DEAD, CONDEMNED AND SINNERS is false because it flatly contradicts the EXPLICIT CLEAR READING OF THE TEXT.

 

[loDebar]

However, Romans 5:12-19 is about the primary cause for condemnation of all in Adam and justification for all in Christ. It is about the ROOT SOURCE. Romans 5:12 gives you the ROOT SOURCE for entrance of sin and death into the world. Romans 5:15-19 gives you the ROOT SOURCE for condemnation for all in Adam and it is not due to "MANY SINS BY MANY" as your doctrine demands but it repeatedly states "by one man's disobedience many" be dead, be condemned be made sinners. Your doctrine demands it should read "by many men's disobediences many be dead, condemned, made sinners" BUT IT DOES NOT SAY THAT DOES IT?

no, [people are] being beguiled by the devil to blames others for your sin . Romans 5 is not the cause for condemnation.
Adam's sin only affected the physical, look at he curse. It lists the curse. We know sin is not physical but spiritual. Man is the only creature that is both. Adam was already a spiritual sinner, as we were being condemned

WE were judged and condemned before we were men, according to Jesus statements and John 3 18.

sorry for the difficulty with this

 

[Reformed1689]

Adam was already a spiritual sinner, as we were being condemned

Before the fall? No. That is not correct.

WE were judged and condemned before we were men, according to Jesus statements and John 3 18.

Where in the world does it say we were condemned before we were men? That doesn't even make sense.

 

[loDebar]

Before the fall? No. That is not correct.


Where in the world does it say we were condemned before we were men? That doesn't even make sense.

it comes from three verses,

Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God gives judgement to the Son, the Son says I do not judge after the flesh , I judge no man.

Yet we are condemned. If Adam was a man and condemned both him could not have been condemned AS A MAN, according to Jesus.

so He had to condemned BEFORE. Remember we are body and soul. The soul sins the body does not, according to Jesus.

So he had to be condemned as a soul, before he had a body

 

[Reformed1689]

it comes from three verses,

Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jhn 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God gives judgement to the Son, the Son says I do not judge after the flesh , I judge no man.

Yet we are condemned. If Adam was a man and condemned both him could not have been condemned AS A MAN, according to Jesus.

so He had to condemned BEFORE. Remember we are body and soul. The soul sins the body does not, according to Jesus.

So he had to be condemned as a soul, before he had a body

Wow, none of that says that. This is not exegesis this is eisigesis and even with that it is pretty absurd.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yet we are condemned. If Adam was a man and condemned both him could not have been condemned AS A MAN, according to Jesus.

But it is only MAN that is condemned not something that is not man!
There was no sin before sin entered the world with Adam's sin! Read Romans 5:12 and it bluntly tells you when sin entered the world and it was THAT SIN which condemned man not some sin prior to man - no bible for that at all!

 

[loDebar]

edi

no, [people are] being beguiled by the devil to blames others for your sin . Romans 5 is not the cause for condemnation.
Adam's sin only affected the physical, look at he curse. It lists the curse. We know sin is not physical but spiritual. Man is the only creature that is both. Adam was already a spiritual sinner, as we were being condemned

WE were judged and condemned before we were men, according to Jesus statements and John 3 18.

sorry for the difficulty with this

Editors, that change is fine I had no intent to single out a board member but us "you" a general example.
It might be a southern thing

 

[loDebar]

Wow, none of that says that. This is not exegesis this is eisigesis and even with that it is pretty absurd.

I suggest you read the verses, go to the Greek as well and show me where I may be wrong, I might agree with you

 

[loDebar]

But it is only MAN that is condemned not something that is not man!
There was no sin before sin entered the world with Adam's sin! Read Romans 5:12 and it bluntly tells you when sin entered the world and it was THAT SIN which condemned man not some sin prior to man - no bible for that at all!

are you kidding Satan and others were here already , remember in the garden who tempted them
Look at Job 38:7 and notice they were here at the creation of Light, look at the expressions

 

[Reformed1689]

I suggest you read the verses, go to the Greek as well and show me where I may be wrong, I might agree with you

Actually you are the one making the claim. You need to exegete the passage and show how it says that.

 

[loDebar]

I knew you would not. but you would not believe my explanation anyway
.
It is rather simple, and the entire passages containing the verse does not change the meaning of the individual verse anyway.

I will post something for you to deny.

 

[Reformed1689]

I knew you would not. but you would not believe my explanation anyway
.
It is rather simple, and the entire passages containing the verse does not change the meaning of the individual verse anyway.

I will post something for you to deny.

If you post something that is biblically and exegetically sound, then I will believe it.