Divine Law that justifies condemning just for unjust

[percho]

A thought that just came to mind relative to the world, sin and man.

I wonder why, The Just One, the Lamb, was slain from the foundation of the world, why he was going to shed his precious blood, before the foundation of the world, rather than after Adam sinned?

What would have happened had Adam not eaten of the tree? There goes plan A.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

So much, for that, taking place!

 

[percho]

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Was Adam, in the flesh, the righteousness of God before he sinned?

 

[loDebar]

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Was Adam, in the flesh, the righteousness of God before he sinned?

no was a sinner before He was human, He sinned and affected the physical world. The spiritual was already condemned

 

[Reformed1689]

no was a sinner before He was human, He sinned and affected the physical world. The spiritual was already condemned

This is not biblical.

 

[loDebar]

This is not biblical.

Do not confuse Biblical with what someone told us is Biblical. It is unfortunate we are told mans opinion rather than straight verses

John 8 15

ὑμεῖς κατὰ τὴν σάρκα κρίνετε ἐγὼ οὐ κρίνω οὐδένα

YLT 'Ye according to the flesh do judge; I do not judge any one, or KJV Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

In the conversation how man judges on the appearance, or flesh Jesus adds " I do not judge any one,"

Jhn 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

κρίνω perfect passive inductive condemned

If Jesus judges no one or no man, Adam and the rest of us could not be condemned as flesh or as a man, but yet we are condemned. Therefore we had to be condemned before we were men and continue in that condemnation as men. Man is the only physical and spiritual being ever created. We sinned as spiritual beings and receive new life through physical connection to Jesus on the cross,
This verse says we were "children" before Jesus came to be human
Heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

The physical creation is for the holding and redemption of sinners.

by the way, Jesus said. God said All judgment is given to the Son
Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed alljudgment unto the Son:

but notice verses like this that Jesus does execute judgment. This shows judgment will nit be given to flesh as John 8 15 but without the flesh to spiritual beings or as souls

Jhn 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Jhn 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

 

[Reformed1689]

Christ, when he says he judges no one, is talking about his earthly ministry. Context matters.

 

[loDebar]

Christ, when he says he judges no one, is talking about his earthly ministry. Context matters.

yes, Adam is earthly, All men are earthly. Judgement does not apply to the earthy, as you say. It was applied before being earthly because we are already condemned. You missed the point judgement has been applied to us, but not a man but spirit.


Did you have a verse to show the limitation you propose. or is this just more man made doctrine?

 

[loDebar]

show us how this is only for His earthly ministry? I might have missed something.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

show us how this is only for His earthly ministry? I might have missed something.

You have. Matthew 7:21-23; 25:31-46.

 

[loDebar]

You have. Matthew 7:21-23; 25:31-46.

Martin, I do not see the connection.. Please explain your verses . Remember the Bible does not put humanity over the soul as men have done

now I see, you mean "I never knew ye"

rather slow today

Martin Marprelate is this a name from 1588 anonymous tract writer

 

[Reformed1689]

Judgement does not apply to the earthy, as you say.

That is not what I said. Judgement absolutely applies to what we did (or more specifically did not do) here on earth in this life.

show us how this is only for His earthly ministry? I might have missed something.

John 3. It is talking about why he came into the world. It has nothing to do with what happens before or later.

 

[Reformed1689]

Martin, I do not see the connection.. Please explain your verses .

The verses he cited discuss Christ's FUTURE judgement.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I do not see the connection.. Please explain your verses . Remember the Bible does not put humanity over the soul as men have done

The Lord Jesus is acting as Judge in both those extracts. He did not come as Judge the first time, but He will do so when He comes again.

Martin Marprelate is this a name from 1588

From around that time, yes. I'm very old.

 

[loDebar]

show us, I believe it is of Jesus in General as opposed to man. I find nothing that explains future, judge might be used in a future tense, no it is present tense but it still applies that Jesus does not judge as men who judge on appearance but God judges the heart. In this verse Jesus said NO It actually says I judge nothing

1Sa 16:7
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

 

[PastoralMusings]

One problem I see here is the attempt to divide man into two separate parts.
Gen 2:7 and 1 Thes 5:23 shows man as a whole. Man is not made up of parts as if spirit, soul, and body are all separate. These make ip the whole man, and man BECAME a soul in Gen 2:7.
This atomizing of man into various parts has more in common with Gnosticism than with Christianity.
Until this is seen, there will be no progress toward an understanding of federal headship, sin, judgment, and justification.

 

[loDebar]

but our souls exists without a body in eternity everyone agree, I suggest pre human body existence is likely

Gen 2:7 is a living being as you say" entire man," not spiritual soul. but we know "made in God's image" is a spiritual being

Explain the Gnostic similarity please

is this all physical bad all spiritual good philosophy? Exactly opposite of what I said

 

[Reformed1689]

show us, I believe it is of Jesus in General as opposed to man. I find nothing that explains future, judge might be used in a future tense, no it is present tense but it still applies that Jesus does not judge as men who judge on appearance but God judges the heart. In this verse Jesus said NO It actually says I judge nothing

1Sa 16:7
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

That verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

[loDebar]

That verse has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

just the part where God says but the LORD looketh on the heart.

same thought that Jesus says

How can you miss this?

 

[PastoralMusings]

but our souls exists without a body in eternity everyone agree, I suggest pre human body existence is likely

Gen 2:7 is a living being as you say" entire man," not spiritual soul. but we know "made in God's image" is a spiritual being

Explain the Gnostic similarity please

is this all physical bad all spiritual good philosophy? Exactly opposite of what I said

No, I do not agree.
There’s the resurrection.
There’s also Rev 6, where souls are shown as being given robes.

Gnosticism was partly about dualism and separating peopleinto parts as though one part was more important or holy than the other. Some used it to pursue asceticism while others pursued antinomianism. None pursued holiness.

 

[percho]

show us how this is only for His earthly ministry? I might have missed something.

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;