Division is GOOD!

[The Biblicist]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Mt. 10:34

When it comes to salvation all the following have the same doctrine in common with each other - Justification by works

1. Roman Catholicism
2. Mormonism
3. Hinduism
4. Jehovah's Witnesses
5. Muslim
6. Seventh Day Adventism
7. Churches of Christ
8. New Age Christianity
9. Unitarianism
10. Methodism
12. Babylonian Mystery Religions

All share the same common ultimate salvation - their works

 

[Yeshua1]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Mt. 10:34

When it comes to salvation all the following have the same doctrine in common with each other - Justification by works

1. Roman Catholicism
2. Mormonism
3. Hinduism
4. Jehovah's Witnesses
5. Muslim
6. Seventh Day Adventism
7. Churches of Christ
8. New Age Christianity
9. Unitarianism
10. Methodism
12. Babylonian Mystery Religions

All share the same common ultimate salvation - their works

ONLY 2 ways to get to heaven
the Cross, or by own works

NONE can qualify on the works, ALL saved must come by the Cross!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

ONLY 2 ways to get to heaven
the Cross, or by own works

NONE can qualify on the works, ALL saved must come by the Cross![/QUOTE]

Which one? The one that Christ actually died on for the salvation of God's own chosen people or the one where His work on the cross was a hypothetical salvation for hypothetical believers.....you must clarify. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Mt. 10:34

When it comes to salvation all the following have the same doctrine in common with each other - Justification by works

Making wild claims is not the same as proving them - as it turns out.

Any more than those who claim that section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith - is "Salvation by works".

Making stuff up - proves nothing.

===============================
Baptist Confession of Faith as revised by C.H.Spurgeon

[FONT=&quot]19.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Law of God [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience [/FONT][FONT=&quot]which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN Commandments and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone[/FONT][FONT=&quot], justified people as well[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done. [/FONT]

 

[Alcott]

Division is GOOD!

I remember liking it even better than multiplication in the third grade.

 

[The Biblicist]

Making wild claims is not the same as proving them - as it turns out.

Any more than those who claim that section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith - is "Salvation by works".

Making stuff up - proves nothing.

You should know as that is what you have been doing - simply playing make believe. I am a Baptist, I know what this article means and what it does not mean. It seems you cannot read, I'll put it in big letters and see if that helps you any (doubt it):

Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly.

 

[BobRyan]

You should know as that is what you have been doing - simply playing make believe. I am a Baptist, I know what this article means and what it does not mean. It seems you cannot read, I'll put it in big letters and see if that helps you any (doubt it):

Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly.

On the contrary - merely quoting the text is sufficient to give rise to your acrimony. And then of course bringing up the not-so-subtle detail that I have never said "the saints are under a covenant of works".

I am just stating the obvious here - but sometimes that is my role.

===============================
Baptist Confession of Faith as revised by C.H.Spurgeon

[FONT=&quot]19.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Law of God [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience [/FONT][FONT=&quot]which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN Commandments and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone[/FONT][FONT=&quot], justified people as well[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

-===========================================

BTW - since you are trying to trash the methodists as well as me in your list - how many here wildly imagine that Methodists do not sign up for the Westminster Confession of Faith - where section 19 is basically verbatim what C.H. Spurgeon wrote above?


Anyone at all???

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

 

[The Biblicist]

I have never said "the saints are under a covenant of works".

But have you also said, true believers are "not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it"

Can you agree with that statement Bob? Can you agree that true believers are not under the law to be "JUSTIFIED OR CONDEMNED BY IT"????

Yes or no!

 

[Yeshua1]

ONLY 2 ways to get to heaven
the Cross, or by own works

NONE can qualify on the works, ALL saved must come by the Cross![/QUOTE]

Which one? The one that Christ actually died on for the salvation of God's own chosen people or the one where His work on the cross was a hypothetical salvation for hypothetical believers.....you must clarify. :smilewinkgrin:

The ones jesus ACTUALLY died on behalf of, the chosen and elect by the father in Christ!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The ones jesus ACTUALLY died on behalf of, the chosen and elect by the father in Christ!

Splendid :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

But have you also said, true believers are "not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it"

Can you agree with that statement Bob? Can you agree that true believers are not under the law to be "JUSTIFIED OR CONDEMNED BY IT"????

Yes or no!

Here is how this will go, he will say yes he agrees with it and then in the same breath say that keeping the law is evidence of a true believer. Problem he has is he does not understand that no one can keep the law's demands for justification.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is how this will go, he will say yes he agrees with it and then in the same breath say that keeping the law is evidence of a true believer. Problem he has is he does not understand that no one can keep the law's demands for justification.

I know what SDA's believe. Their favorite text on this subject is Romans 8:4. They do not believe you can become a child of God by keeping the law, but they believe once you are a child of God you have the power of the indwelling Spirit that enables you to be justified by works.

However, Neither the English Baptists who penned the 1689 Confession of Faith, or C.H. Spurgeon or the Philadelphia Baptist Association who adopted this confession believed what SDA's beleive. They flatly denied that children of God or those already indwelt by the Spirit of God could be justified or sanctified by the Law of God or by doing good works. They did not believe that progressive sanctification was divine enablement to be justified by works.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Mt. 10:34

When it comes to salvation all the following have the same doctrine in common with each other - Justification by works

1. Roman Catholicism
2. Mormonism
3. Hinduism
4. Jehovah's Witnesses
5. Muslim
6. Seventh Day Adventism
7. Churches of Christ
8. New Age Christianity
9. Unitarianism
10. Methodism
12. Babylonian Mystery Religions

All share the same common ultimate salvation - their works

You are doing an injustice by putting 6, 7, and 10 in this group, as none of them believe in salvation by works.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are doing an injustice by putting 6, 7, and 10 in this group, as none of them believe in salvation by works.

No injustice at all. I fully understand what they teach and they do not teach justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. And if my memory serves me correctly neither do you. Those who reject this definition preach "another gospel" as far as I am concerned.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

No injustice at all. I fully understand what they teach and they do not teach justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works. And if my memory serves me correctly neither do you. Those who reject this definition preach "another gospel" as far as I am concerned.

They do teach that. Wesley believed that works are the fruit of the spirit and flow from faith, not that works save you. You are falsely representing what these denominations teach.

And about me, your memory does not serve you correctly. I don't know why you say that about me, but you are totally mistaken.

 

[BobRyan]

I know what SDA's believe.

Speaking as one who is SDA - I would say that your accuracy is not always apparent in that regard.

Their favorite text on this subject is Romans 8:4. They do not believe you can become a child of God by keeping the law

Well I do not reject Rom 8:4 if that is your point. However nobody here can possibly support your claim based on the posts I have made - as if Rom 8:4 was "my favorite text".

I think we both know that.

And of course - we do not believe you can become a saint or saved by law keeping.

neither do we deny Paul's statement in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" nor John's statements in Rev 14:12 that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

, but they believe once you are a child of God you have the power of the indwelling Spirit that enables you to be justified by works.

That enables you to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" AND to be seen as the Matt 7 trees producing good fruit.

You are taking advantage of the reader when you quote James saying "you seen than that a man is justified by works AND NOT by faith alone" James 2 -- because James is talking about the FRUIT of a changed life. He is not talking about the lost being justified by works.

I think we both knew that as well.

And your wild idea that we as saints do not grow in knowledge and maturity is a flat contradiction to Paul in Heb 5 saying that the "babes" in the NT age were stunted in their growth - were in need of milk and not solid food and needed to grow by "having their senses trained" by obedience to the Word of God.


My guess is that we both know that as well.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No injustice at all. I fully understand what they teach and they do not teach justification by grace .

That much of your post is simply incorrect.

Even you had a hard time sticking to that accusation in an earlier post.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

They do teach that. Wesley believed that works are the fruit of the spirit and flow from faith, not that works save you. You are falsely representing what these denominations teach.

And about me, your memory does not serve you correctly. I don't know why you say that about me, but you are totally mistaken.

I understand the angle and it is a matter of semantics. They approach from the positive side. The SDA do the same thing. However, it is the negative side that demonstrates what they really believe. They believe it is possible for justified born again believers to lose their salvation and you know that is true.

That potential must be credited to someone. Either it is God's fault or their fault as there are no other possible alternatives. I understand they do not define that choice and resultant actions to be works. I understand you may not define that as works. However, I think you and they will ultimately define it as works on judgement day - bad works, as there are only two possible classifications possible on judgement day by their own admission - good or bad works. Hence, they do believe ultimate justification will be determined by works, as they do believe that such a choice is an act of man, thus a work of man. They do believe it is not a GOOD act but a BAD act and on judgement day they do believe that God will view it as a BAD act as they do believe such a choice will fall under the judgement of God in that day and they do believe there is but one basis for God's judgement in that day and that is "according to your works" and there are only two classifications of works "good" or "bad."

Therefore, that idea that a true child of God can lose their salvation is a declaration of final justification by works irregardless of the semantics or mental gymnastics on your part or their part.

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone[/FONT][FONT=&quot], justified people as well[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]6. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.[/FONT]

But have you also said, true believers are "not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it"

Can you agree with that statement Bob? Can you agree that true believers are not under the law to be "JUSTIFIED OR CONDEMNED BY IT"????

Yes or no!

[FONT=&quot]If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace. [/FONT]

Did I forget to quote that?

The Ten Commandments (Moral law) for the saints - [FONT=&quot] as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly

OSAS is man-made tradition and false doctrine. That I freely state as Christ teaches "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18 and also in Ezek 18 and in Romans 11.

In Romans 6 Paul is clear that the one who claims to be saved and then engages in obedience to sin - is doomed to destruction.

This is not a "Covenant of works" rather it is how Grace Works under the Gospel.

Notice it here in Romans 6 -

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]8Now if we [/FONT][FONT=&quot]have died with Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot], we believe that we shall also live with Him, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]death no longer is master[/FONT][FONT=&quot] over Him. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11Even so consider yourselves to be [/FONT][FONT=&quot]dead to sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but alive to God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12Therefore [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not let [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin reign in your mortal body so that[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot] its lusts, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13and do not go on presenting the members of your [/FONT][FONT=&quot]body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]14For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin shall not be master over you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Shall we sin because we are not under law[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but under grace[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]May it never be![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of the one whom you obey[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17But thanks be to God that though [/FONT][FONT=&quot]you were slaves of sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18and having been freed from sin, you became [/FONT][FONT=&quot]slaves of righteousness[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[steaver]

I understand the angle and it is a matter of semantics. They approach from the positive side. The SDA do the same thing. However, it is the negative side that demonstrates what they really believe. They believe it is possible for justified born again believers to lose their salvation and you know that is true.

That potential must be credited to someone. Either it is God's fault or their fault as there are no other possible alternatives. I understand they do not define that choice and resultant actions to be works. I understand you may not define that as works. However, I think you and they will ultimately define it as works on judgement day - bad works, as there are only two possible classifications possible on judgement day by their own admission - good or bad works. Hence, they do believe ultimate justification will be determined by works, as they do believe that such a choice is an act of man, thus a work of man. They do believe it is not a GOOD act but a BAD act and on judgement day they do believe that God will view it as a BAD act as they do believe such a choice will fall under the judgement of God in that day and they do believe there is but one basis for God's judgement in that day and that is "according to your works" and there are only two classifications of works "good" or "bad."

Therefore, that idea that a true child of God can lose their salvation is a declaration of final justification by works irregardless of the semantics or mental gymnastics on your part or their part.

Very well stated, :thumbsup: When you strip away all the rhetoric, what is the bottom line? If salvation can be forfeited, then it must involve works.