Divisions among Christians

Hi Bob,

Didn't the Jews add to God's commands and by and large reject Christ? hmmmmmmmmmm......yet Paul writes to the Romans that all of Israel will be saved.

Peace, GH

 

SOLA SCRIPTURE and SOLA FIDE...two 'hallmark's of Protestantism, and NOT found in the Bible...nor is there a 'table of contents' in the New Testament...one either believes the promise of Jesus "I am with you always," or one does not. Joseph Smith, Martin Luther did not.

 

Precilla -

Gotta say, that was an excellent post. It is the 180 opposite of my experience, but sounds pretty sincere and real. I love that you have fallen in love with the Lord throught the Bible. That is great. You will notice over time, that if you expose yourself daily to anything regarding your faith, with real ferverency, you will grow closer to God. I have seen in the Catholic church since I arrived here, that there is room for such. I have seen so many (in both places actually ) that do nothing on a daily level to guide their minds in thier faith.

If you go through the Hour of Prayers daily, or study the Bible alone, or do Oswald Chambers devotional daily, you still in all cases, get the Bible, and make an effort to guide your mind and faith with focus. This will alwasy produce in all cases, a mind focused and centered on God.

If you read about cooking every day, you will be a good cook. Anybody that focuses their minds on anything daily, will adhere to that focus over time, one way or another.

 

One of the strong reasons that I have heard for praying to the dead is as follows:

If you truly believe in the holy catholic church (small c) and that to be absent from the body is to present with the Lord, then why wouldn't you ask St. Paul or St. Mark or others to pray for you? You do ask others (still living) to pray for you, right?

While I don't necessary agree with the above, this was from Catholic radio show, and is the best argument I've heard in praying to the dead.

 

That is Romans 11 where Paul states "Quite right THEY were CAST OUT for unbelief" - he points out a system where unbelief causes branches to be broken off and cast away - and those that are grafted in - only remain as they continue in faith. Then Paul concludes "IN THIS WAY - all Israel shall be saved". In other words - "They are NOT ALL Israel who are sons of the flesh".

Paul argues in both Romans 9 and 11 that spiritually the term "Israel" is satisified by the "sons of faith" - children of Promise from among the Jews AND the Gentiles. BOTH together are grafted in - standing on faith - and THUS -- in that way -- all Israel ends up being saved.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan -

Could you please provide me with some examples of NT conversions, where the text of Scripture explicitly shows a person asking Jesus Christ into their hearts to be saved? This should not be a problem since it is the very chief way a person can get into heaven. Could anything this important for an Evangelical Church in the first 30-60 years of Christianity be overlooked in the Bible? The text should at least support this teaching so we can remove a lot of subjective interpretation techniques.

I THOUGHT EVANGELICALS WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO SHOW ME THIS?

 

Bob you wrote:


Then Paul concludes "IN THIS WAY - all Israel shall be saved". In other words - "They are NOT ALL Israel who are sons of the flesh".


Me:

Paul writes:

As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Israel) are enemies on your (gentiles) account; but as far as election is concerned, they are LOVED on account of the patriarchs, ((((for God's gifts and HIS call are IRREVOCABLE. Just as you (gentiles) who were at one time disobedient to God have now received MERCY as a result of their (Israel) disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they TOO may now receive MERCY as a result of God's MERCY to you (gentiles). For GOD HAS BOUND ALL MEN OVER TO DISOBEDIENCE so that HE may have MERCY on them ALL.

Then comes the great doxology of God's majesty and sovereignty.

God has bound all men over to disobedience. Let me repeat that: God has bound all men over to disobedience. So that He may have mercy on them all. I don't see how anyone can interpret this any other way but literally for all people.

I don't think I can choose Him unless He reveals Himself and His mercy to me for I have been bound over to disobedience. Only HIS mercy allows me to see this. Did I choose to be disobedient? No. Did I choose to be obedient? No. No one can make a choice for God unless He has so empowered them to do it. For He hardens whom He wants to harden and He has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy on.

Peace, GH

 

Charles,

Luke 8:5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Eph 3:17. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18. May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19. And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21. Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

God Bless

 

3am:

This is a parable. It still does not show a person asking Jesus into their hearts. I would really rather have a conversion experience that actually is documented in the NT. A real person, a real act. What is in doubt here by me is not that Jesus cannot reside in our hearts, but the recapitulation experience predicated by a rite of passage of asking him into our hearts. That is what I do not see in the NT. You can probably find an actual one in Acts maybe?

'He may dwell in our hearts by faith'. That is how he dwells there. But how did he get there? Just by a thought, a belief, a prayer with belief? This is only telling attributes of Jesus in us. It is not a conversion example.

Brining a person to Christ is very important. There should be a conversion example detailing or at least showing us how to do it, or how they did it.

 

Brining a person to Christ is very important. There should be a conversion example detailing or at least showing us how to do it, or how they did it.

Hi Charles,

Paul's conversion is the model, I believe. Struck down by Christ on the road to Damascus with murder in his heart.

We are taken hold of and acted upon by God - not the other way around.

Peace, GH

 

GH - Paul's conversion I have no problem with. The text is very specific in Paul's case in two different places. It never describes him asking Jesus into his heart? I always just assumed that he did previously.

 

Hi Again Charles,

Maybe I'm not understanding you. Are you saying that Paul asked Jesus into his heart before his conversion?

If so, I personally do not see that in the scripture. Since Paul's mission of murder and persecution was interupted by our Lord on the road to Damascus.

From one moment to the next Paul believed. He saw Christ and believed. He wasn’t even looking for Christ – he was bent on murdering Christ’s disciples. Paul knew that he couldn’t boast about his salvation. He knew it was a free gift by God’s mercy. He knew that he did nothing to bring about this conversion. He stood by and held the cloaks of those who STONED Stephen to DEATH as Stephen spoke of the love of God through Jesus Christ! He didn't ask Jesus to be his personal Lord and Savior. He knew that he didn’t ask for salvation from Jesus – he HATED Jesus and His followers. He knew that he had murder in his heart and yet he was struck down by LOVE and was forever changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye Christ revealed Himself to Paul and he was forever changed.

I have no doubt that Paul believed he was doing God's work but did you ever wonder why God chose the self-righteous, Pharisaical Paul as the apostle of grace? Paul KNEW he could do NOTHING to save himself. Paul was saved by grace.

He’s a good God! And willing that none should perish.

Peace, GH

 

Rev 3 --- "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN".

Heb 8, 10 show "a New heart" is the result.

Colossians 1:27-28 "Christ In you the hope of Glory".

It "seems" like a pretty close approximation to the idea of inviting Christ into your heart.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Rev 3 --- "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN".

Hi Bob,

I guess you're responding to my post.

Isn't the book of Rev. written to believers?

People who already call Him Lord. It's apparent to me that there is something wrong when this verse is used for evangelization purposes.

Christ calls us into a deeper union with Him - based imo on a relationship and not on religious practices and selfish motives. If any man hears.......

Blessings to you in Jesus, GH

 

GH - No I don't believe Paul asked Jesus into his heart to be saved. The text does not tell us this as you already know. I have asked for conversion examples in the NT that show this experience. Conversion examples, not subjective interpretations of certain passages. In Paul's own words of his conversion, he says of Ananias saying to him (Paul), ..." And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Acts 22:16

This was Paul's conversion, specifically his rebirth into Christ. The forgiveness of his sins, and the rebirth of his spirit. The text says that he was baptized, washing away his sins. Jesus had already touched him, influenced him, guided him, but Paul still was converted and forgiven in baptism.

 

Bob, I don't doubt that Jesus lives in us, and has renewed our hearts. I don't doubt his presence in us. I do not see in the NT where we are to ask Him into our hearts to have a converion or 'rite of passage' into Christianity.

Rev.3:30 - Yes this was written to believers via John, guided by the Holy Spirit. It is a beautiful metaphor. This could just as easily be a call to believers to have daily worship with Jesus. A call to communion, to dine, and he with us. You can read it as asking Jesus into your heart as well, but that is just as subjective. So, to be clear, I have yet to see an act of conversion even one time in all of scripture, where people asked Jesus into their hearts as a conversion to Christ, or were instructed to.

I would have thought as an event that is so critical to salvation in the Evangelical world, that they would show or key on examples in the Bible, which is the sole authority for them, of such experiences. Especialy when the Christian Church all through history did not understand or teach such a teaching. I think it is a new teaching and parallels Protestant accusations that Catholics invent doctrine without examples in the Bible.

 

Hi Charles,

I see what you are saying: it was the baptism that sealed the conversion. Yes?

Well, I guess I can agree that baptism is an outward sign of an already internal conversion based on the revelation of and an encounter with an awesome God. First comes love, then comes marriage. lol

As far as subjective interpretations go, I've found in my own life that the initial encounter with the awesome Living God superimposes itself upon all other interpretations. It is the litmus for me. Hope this makes sense to you.

Blessings to you brother in Christ, GH

 

New man here... Actually not new to the BB as I'm the moderator of the Baptist History Forum. A good title... Divisions Among Christians. This is where I personally in my study of church history see the problem... It's not that you are a Christian but what label do you wear? Are you a Baptist Christian... A Calvinist Christian... A Lutheran... Methodist... Amish... Jewish... Catholic... Or a famous stand is I'm neither I'm a Biblical Christian ect... ect. What name do you you claim?... What name do you wear?

Reminds me of the brethren who said we are of Paul or we are of Apollos... But who is it that giveth the increase?... It is always the Lord!... There are divisions because as the scriptures state we are but men. I am a Primitive Baptist through and through and have been one for 35 years... Most of you probably never heard of them but that is okay as I try to serve the Lord to the best of my ability and leave those who serve the Lord in their own way alone.

There are enough division among christians in their own camps without dividing them further. If they would have in christian brotherhood patched things up... There wouldn't have been a split in the first place... Splits always happen because of interpretation of scripture... One interprets it one way and one sees it another. We all serve God and if some say well the way you understand it is wrong... As long as I don't bring what I believe to your church and you don't bring your belief to mine... There is no division.

Truth is throughout the scriptures... And my interpretation of that truth may be different from others... But to my satisfaction it is the truth for me... How others see it is the truth for them... Now all this being said there is one truth that cannot be denied... All that Jesus Christ came into the world to save will be saved ... And taken to Heaven where divisions among Christians will never come to mind!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist

 

There are a great many different Christian groups and no two of them agree 100% all the way down the line. So the real question is "what does that tell you"?

In John 16, 14 and 2Thess 2 we are told that Christians should love the truth - embrace and even hunger and thirst (Matt 5) after it.

But given the 1000's of different variations today - it is highly unlikely that whatever group you happen to be a member of - has all the truth - or is right on every point.

In Christ's day the "ONe True church started by God at Sinai with forever promises of His Spirit, and His Teaching truth" - got into a lot of error. And there were some sects dividing EVEN that larger bundle of error and truth mixed together.

So did it "matter" if you were of the Sadducees instead of the Pharisees? If you rejected the doctrine of the resurrection like the Sadducees did?

After all - they were all still part of the Jewish church and as Christ said in John 4 "Salvation is of the Jews".

Christ did not teach error - and each of those groups had the opportunity to drop their own errors and embrace truth. They could also claim that since they were all Jews - it really didn't matter if one group was right on some point while another was mistaken on that one point.

The problem is no different today.

"Come out her My people" is a call by God for Christians to leave whatever error they hold - no matter what group they are in.

But can you really say that you see this happening on this board? Are the Methodists all becoming Baptist or the Baptists all becoming Lutherans? Is there a "trend"?

If so it appears to be the "trend" of not making any change.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob... I see very few if any dropping the labels that they wear... Why should they?... For what reason?... If they disagree with doctrine that is taught in their denomination whatever it is they can find another group of people that see things the way they do... I agree with you not every church has all truth but I also feel that everyone who is worshipping God is his child or why would they be worshipping him ... Why are churches no matter what denomination filled to capacity if they are not God's children?... They may be in doctrinal error but they belong to him?... I know very few will agree with my stand but that is my understanding... Others want to see it different that is fine by me... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist