Divorce and Remarriage

[saturneptune]

Romans 10:18

 

[Marcia]

What, have you got me blocked out or something?

No, but I think you are the only one. The thread seems to have fallen into a fight between 2 of the posters. :sleep:

Would have liked to have seen a good, old-fashioned scriptural debate, but I think some of the guys that did that before seem to be gone. Like Pastor Larry. He hasn't been around lately.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The fact remains that you denied the Scripture from Matthew 5:32. It seems your only talent is calling names. But then again, what would you expect from Primitives. Is there any other verses that you ignore?

Fact. Look who's speaking of facts. Check out your posts, planetman, and see for yourself who ignored facts about what was said. You accused me of saying things I did not say, and you talk of facts ?
You shoulda been a lawyer for the mob.

With all the money you guys save on missions, you church budget should be able to afford marriage seminars for those having problems so there is no divorce in your perfect world.

And all the money you guys spent on mission were spent to defame the Savior by preaching a Savior whose job is not and cannot be completed without the assent of the sinner.

And we've a name for your kind in my country: chismoso.
Rumor-monger, busybody. You yourself said you had no personal issue on this matter, and yet here you are.
Let me tell you why.
Because you have an axe to grind against those who hold to the Doctrine of Grace or Calvinism is why. It's not the issue being discussed here, it is that I happen to belong to that group you do not like.
Goodness, I'm quaking in my shoes.

And you know that I meant that since it is adultry to remarry if you were divorced for any reason but unfaithfulness...

You are quite good at word games, terrible at Biblical doctrine.

Yeah, yeah, go have your way, planetman.

 

[pinoybaptist]

apologies

No, but I think you are the only one. The thread seems to have fallen into a fight between 2 of the posters. :sleep:

Would have liked to have seen a good, old-fashioned scriptural debate, but I think some of the guys that did that before seem to be gone. Like Pastor Larry. He hasn't been around lately.

I apologize, Marcia. I'm bowing out of that fight.
The other guy can have the crown and the glory.

 

[saturneptune]

Romans 10:18, that settles this

 

[pinoybaptist]

tell you what....

Romans 10:18, that settles this

start a thread on Romans 10:18, in fact, on Romans 10 as a whole, and I'll see you there.
let's discuss that context by context.
start the discussion with what you say that verse says.
as for our fight, you can have the crown, the fame, and the glory, so go to bed, planetman, rest, sleep, close your eyes, and dream of me.:sleeping_2:
good night.
love and kisses to you, and yours.:flower:

 

[Brother Bob]

Would have liked to have seen a good, old-fashioned scriptural debate, but I think some of the guys that did that before seem to be gone. Like Pastor Larry. He hasn't been around lately.

Sorry to disappoint you. Maybe you will run into him somewhere or at least I hope so.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

? Where in Scripture does God ever state that one style of divorce is better than another?

Where does scripture state that divorce is worse than these sins?

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Where does scripture state that divorce is worse than these sins?

Well, according to this Scripture you don't just commit it one time but if you are living in it then it continues and that is why Jesus gave us this one exception to divorce.
One other thing is that a marriage bond is something apparently recorded in Heaven for you become as one flesh. Now the sins you listed you don't bond with someone for life do you? Now if a marriage is a bond in Heaven then seems to me that Heaven is the only one that can release you from that bond and Jesus gave us that only cause according to the way I understand Scripture. I grant you it has been a hard struggle and still will be about double marriage.

Matthew, chapter 5

"32": But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

 

[LeBuick]

Matthew, chapter 5

"32": But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I've often questioned this, is it divorce that's the sin or the remairage that is the sin (adultery)?

 

[npetreley]

I've often questioned this, is it divorce that's the sin or the remairage that is the sin (adultery)?

I think the two are being tied together here, with the emphasis on adultery.

If you put away your wife for any reason other than adultery, you're making her an adulterer [if she remarries] because God does not respect your certificate of divorce and still sees you two as one flesh. If anyone marries her, they are committing adultery with her because God still sees her as one flesh with you.

If she has committed adultery before you divorce her, however, she has already joined herself with another man, and has violated your one-flesh relationship with her. You are no longer making her an adulterer by divorcing her, since she is one already.

As someone else pointed out, the law said that she'd be stoned to death anyway for the adultery, which would free you from the marriage. But there were other provisions in the law that allowed for divorce. In fact, it was fairly trivial for a man to divorce a woman in Mosaic law. I don't even recall seeing any Mosaic law that allowed a woman to divorce her husband, though.

 

[Soulman]

Man, I am sure glad Pinoybaptist and Saturneptune finished their tantrum.

I do have a question about the church membership thing.

If you would allow a divorced and remarried couple to join and serve in the church, why would you ex-communicate someone going through a divorce? In the eyes of some the sin of divorce has been taken to the next level by remarriage. Same sin only seperated by time.

I can see mabey not allowing someone to serve in an official capacity due to a poor testamony, but to revoke membership? It was even stated that the couple could still attend just not as members. That is a little hypocritical. Boot em or don't!

God forgives sin. Is some sin worse in the eyes of God than others? It is the first sin that sends a man to hell. Every one of us sin every day. Shouldn't we lose our membership as well? Who says divorce and re marriage is any worse than any other sin. Who says where the line is that your sin reaches the severe penalty of being dropped from the house of God?

I had a discussion with my former pastor on the subject. He said that if I asked him if I could re marry, he would say no. Then if I did, I would be going against pastoral authority. However, if I just walked in and introduced my new wife, he would sign her up and put her in the bus ministry. However, he would never perform the marriage ceremony of divorced people. But he'll sign em up and let em serve. EXCUSE me while I VOMIT!!

I believe we will never be judged for sin again. We are incapable of living a sinless life in this body. All sin, past, present and future have been paid for. I am not talking about living a life of lawlessness because all is forgiven or trying to justify divorce and re marriage. I am saying that if people are saying remarriage is wicked and unforgivable while someone is going through it, then those who have remarried have even less of a place in the church according to that mentality.

I say that we need to lighten up, realize that remarried couples are forgiven just like everyone else for every other sin.:thumbsup:

 

[npetreley]

I say that we need to lighten up, realize that remarried couples are forgiven just like everyone else for every other sin.:thumbsup:

Amen to that. I would qualify that a little, though, but I think you covered the territory, just not specifically. Just to give an example: A woman commits adultery. She insists she is doing nothing wrong and tries to justify it with some excuse such as her husband doesn't communicate with her, or whatever. I think this person needs to be rebuked, and if she refuses to repent, perhaps she needs to be booted.

Let's say she gets booted. Meanwhile, she divorces her husband and marries her lover. Some time later, she gets convicted of her sin and truly repents of all she did. It's too late to undo the damage, so the best she can do is repent, ask her former husband for forgiveness, ask God for forgiveness and ask the church for forgiveness.

I see no reason why the church shouldn't forgive her, welcome her back with open arms, and do whatever it takes to restore her to fellowship. She has repented. What good does it do to anyone for the church to make her "pay" for what she did for the rest of her church life after she has truly repented and asked forgiveness? Isn't that what we're supposed to do? Forgive her? I think those who continue to judge her and place an unfair burden upon her by refusing her membership will be more likely to have to account for their behavior to God than she will.

 

[Soulman]

Quoted by npetreley: "I see no reason why the church shouldn't forgive her, welcome her back with open arms, and do whatever it takes to restore her to fellowship. She has repented." End quote

Absoloutley! All these years it just never set right with me that people treated divorce and remarriage so differently than other sins. I understand that we can and do sin. The bible says our hearts are desperately wicked. There may be degrees or levels in hell where our wickedness determines our punishment to some degree. But it is the first time we said no to Mommy that gets us there.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Quoted by npetreley: "I see no reason why the church shouldn't forgive her, welcome her back with open arms, and do whatever it takes to restore her to fellowship. She has repented." End quote

Absoloutley! All these years it just never set right with me that people treated divorce and remarriage so differently than other sins. I understand that we can and do sin. The bible says our hearts are desperately wicked. There may be degrees or levels in hell where our wickedness determines our punishment to some degree. But it is the first time we said no to Mommy that gets us there.

I apologize for the "tantrum", soulman. This is a perfectly good subject we could all have learned from, or at least understand what the other believes and why, until the other guy came out swinging and we hijacked it with our bickering.

My stand on divorce is my own personal stand which may or may not necessarily be the conviction of my people and their churches, and if those who questioned my convictions and threw insinuations around and outright called me "holier-than-thou" had been patient enough as they said they would be patient with sinners (isn't that funny ? or maybe, hypocritical ?)to explain to me that Matthew 5:32 means exactly what the Savior meant it to be, and that there are no other Scriptures in the Old or New Testament that will give a deeper meaning or different interpretation to the contrary (that God is allowing divorce for reasons of fornication), then maybe I will change what I believe about the matter.

Bear in mind that while we have forefathers in our individual faiths who wrote on various subject matter, the final authority is still the Bible, and the final teacher is still the Holy Spirit, and the principle that God has given us in arriving at interpretations is by comparing spiritual with spiritual, scripture with scripture, here a little, there a little.

And, personally, I am convinced that if Christ loved His people with an everlasting love, despite who they are, murderers, liars, fornicators, blasphemers, homosexuals, etc., and they are all secure in Christ who never changes, therefore that relationship with the Savior extends and reflects with our relationship to each other in church, and divorce violates that principle.

Now, in another one of your posts, you said that you find inconsistency in excommunicating those who divorce, but later on allowing them to join and serve in the church.

I don't know about that church you are alluding to, and frankly, if your pastor's stand makes you want to puke, I don't think he is the pastor for you. No disrespect intended.

But, as far as I am concerned, having pastored a church once and thankfully not having had to confront any couple who contemplated divorce among our membership, divorce points to something spiritual in those who go through with it, despite the many counselling that have been done by elders of the church.

Consider the reasons.

Adultery and fornication, which are the topmost justifications for those who favor divorce and remarriage in the church, is a sexual sin, and when repeated over and over again, points to the possibility that the professing believer may not be one at all.
Please don't point at David.
David is a Holy Spirit certified child of God who in a moment of weakness committed adultery with Bathsheba, did not repent, and let the sin fester and produce more sin in his life.
But when a professing child of God such as a church member commits this sin repeatedly, especially if the marriage has been quite a while, so as to prompt the other spouse to sue for divorce, there is something wrong with the spiritual side of the offender or there is something going on in the marriage that is more than the eye sees.
What then is the proper role of the church, and the elders ?
It is to lovingly and gently open scriptures to this couple, and lead them back to restoration and reconciliation with each other and the church, and to seek counsel from those well qualified to deal with their emotional problems, and if they refuse, and still go on with their divorce, then the primary duty of the elders now is to make sure that the church they serve is not perceived as tolerant of such a thing among themselves.
Also, as someone in this thread wisely pointed out, divorce and remarriage in the church is no longer simply confined to one violating the marriage bed. We have become like the Hillelians (?) who divorce our spouses for the simple reason of any uncleanness we perceive we have found in them.

Had I ever had the unpleasant job of presenting a coule who divorced before the church for discipline through exclusion, and they had been excluded, I stated that if after the fact they still want to come and worship with us, they will be welcome, but they cannot serve in any capacity in the church as members do, except worship, which in itself is service.

Our love for them has not died. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ as far as we can tell, physically, but only God knows the truth about them. We will receive them as brethren, but membership in the church cannot be an option, especially after one or both have remarried.

And that is the difference between a divorced couple, and a murderer, since one of the posters here asked along that line.

The murderer committed not only a crime against God but also against society. If he be found in church, then I take it to mean he has repented of that sin, and if he has served time in prison, then he has paid his dues to society. The same thing with the convicted pedophile, or rapist, or serial killer.

Now, before I go on, let me ask: would you (not necessarily you, soulman) be in favor of a convicted pedophile being admitted into church membership ? would you trust him with your kids ? how about a convicted serial killer, or murderer, would you give them your full trust and love as you would your other members ?

But divorce, for any reason, is not a crime against society. In fact, it is an accepted fact of life for human society. But, it is a crime against God, even when the reason is for adultery. I believe the overriding principle should be forgiveness on the part of the offended, and if the offender persists, why then let the divorce or leaving come from him/her, and so the principle outlined by Paul is followed:

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

The repeat offender in cases of fornication or adultery is probably an unbeliever, anyway.
But if the offended party claims to be a child of God, then let him/her be forgiving at all times, and not be the initiator of the separation.

How many times was Israel unfaithful to God ?
Yet God had not abandoned Israel.

How many times have we sinned against God ? Each time we sinned is spiritually an adulterous act. The underlying motive for fornication and adultery is unfaithfulness.

 

[Brother Bob]

I've often questioned this, is it divorce that's the sin or the remairage that is the sin (adultery)?

​

Hi LeBuick;
"11": And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

"12": And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

We take it as long as a person remaineth single he is not in adultery but it is when he marries again unless its for the reason Jesus gives us and that is fornication. I know Matt has a little different take on it but they both are quoting from what Jesus taught them so I have always took all the information that was given by Jesus and tried to combine it so as to rightly divide the Scripture.

 

[mima]

First let me say that I am not divorced. I have been married to the same woman for 47 years as of August the second of this year. Now if I might have a little of your attention concerning ourselves let us consider what was said in the sermon on the Mount. In this sermon Jesus says that if a man looks on a woman with lust in his heart he is guilty of adultery. Therefore if anyone on this blog does not consider themselves guilty of adultery please so state. I will be watching for your replies. I do not believe the list of posts stating that they are free from committing adultery according to Jesus will be very long.

 

[Brother Bob]

I so state! mima

Just looking is not the adultery. God made us male and female and we naturally look when we see a pretty opposite but when you began to lust is when you sin and God said "my Grace is sufficient to keep thee and for your temptation I will make a way for your escape". We either have a strong God or we don't. You remove your mind from things that are wrong and move on and I am sure God is pleased when you do. If you stand there and let all kind of thoughts run through your mind then you are guilty as Jimmy Carter said "he lusted all the time". Almost ruined himself if he could go any lower.

Have I looked at a pretty woman, sure but will not dwell on it to the point of lust. Also, it is a common thought that when a man talks to a woman as just a friend the first thing everyone thinks is he is flirting. That makes me so angry when flirting is the farthest thing from my mind.

To lust is to have a desire to have her or dwell on what it would be like to be with her. Just looking is not lusting, we look at beautiful flowers don't we? Sometimes it is a lady just plain looks nice and you think "what a nice looking lady". Shoot, I look at a car and say within myself, "nice car". I am not lusting for the car.

No, I don't consider that I have committed adultery since being a Christian. So let the stones fly!!!

 

[LeBuick]

No, I don't consider that I have committed adultery since being a Christian. So let the stones fly!!!

I don't know if it's because of age, past life or what, but I admit I have committed a lot more sin than adultry, all while being in the Church.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Good for you, Brother Bob, and may your tribe increase if what you stated is true.:thumbs:
However, as in the gift of celibacy, not all men, and perhaps, women, have the gift that you have, which reminds me of what my former pastor in the Philippines used to tell us. "If you see a beautiful woman and you say wow, and let it go at that and don't look again, that is admiration, but if you look a second time, that is adultery in the heart."
Now, mima, if I may ask, what is the point of your question, or post ?