Divorce.... is it endorsement if you...?

[Insane Zamboni]

Now, now, now. Did I say that? I simply said he (Jesus) would welcome them into his home with open arms.

Would he condone divorce? Probably not, but who knows for sure? Would he hold it against them like it's the unpardonable sin? Nope, can't see that.

My 2 cents. Keep the change.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Insane Zamboni:
Touche, bro!

However, from my chair, it appears that you have a fantasy of Jesus based on a "20th or 19th century caricature" of what you want him to be--a mean spirited, unmerciful, judgemental, Pharisee of the Pharisees.

Yikes.

No, I don't—you’re wrong. I challenge you to quote me where I have given any slight shred of evidence that this is my outlook. Your post does not represent my views. Your assertion is totally irrational and without foundation. You are trying to brush away my objections by stereotyping me into what you want me to be. It won’t work.

Christ came to save the sinner from his sin, not in his sin. In Romans, Paul asked whether we ought to sin that grace might abound the more. His emphatic answer was: “God forbid!” To tolerate another’s sin is not showing love to that person. It is a lack of courage when we are unwilling to confront the sinner about his sin. The Christian message is not about tolerance of sin; it is about the forgiveness of sin based on Christ’s paying the penalty. When one repents of his sin and places his faith in Jesus Christ, he is forgiven.

The real sad thing is that a sentimental, mealy-mouthed philosophy of tolerance masquerading as Christianity is deluding people who remain in their sins under the curse and penalty of sin. This is not love. Love is telling the sinner of his sin and how he can be forgiven. Christ’s message was not tolerance but forgiveness.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Insane Zamboni:
Now, now, now. Did I say that? I simply said he (Jesus) would welcome them into his home with open arms.

Would he condone divorce? Probably not, but who knows for sure? Would he hold it against them like it's the unpardonable sin? Nope, can't see that.

My 2 cents. Keep the change.

Why don't you read what he said? Christ clearly said that God's will was for one man and one woman. What more needs to be said? Divorce is not God's will. On the other hand, we have divorce and remarriage in the church and we have to deal with it. The problem is that churches don’t deal with it because we are cowards. Scripture clearly teaches separation from a brother who is fornicator until he repents. The church is to judge. This is good and proper because it seeks to bring the sinning brother or sister to repentance and back into fellowship. Also, it protects the rights of the innocent parties and the testimony of Christ. When supposed Christians sin, the name of Christ is blasphemed among unbelievers. Yet, we are so fearful of confronting and offending the sinner. What is more important, the sinner being offended or the testimony of Christ? A soiled testimony of the church may hinder lost sinners from believing because the church’s credibility is destroyed. Do we give tolerance to sin and risk losing souls? When the church and Christians stand boldly against sin, the message rings clear and true.

Furthermore, you are going beyond anything said on this thread. No one has claimed that divorce is unforgivable. Adultery, murder, fornication, stealing, homosexuality, etc. can all be forgiven. Christ said that only sin against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven.

Sometimes, the sinner must learn not to sin from the hardship he or she suffers. Read about God’s chastening in Hebrews 12. It is chastening for the good of the one enduring it. Do you want to mitigate God’s chastening and efforts to bring the sinner to repentance?

I don’t know how old you are but you seem to be a young person. Though you probably don’t realize it, you are trotting out the same old clichés and arguments of the compromised churches of the 1960 -70’ s. They didn’t work then and they won’t work now.

 

[AVL1984]

Being a child of a broken home, and having watched several of my sibling divorce (including one who was an Independent Fundamental Baptist preachers wife for reasons of mental cruelty and mind-control to the point of alienating her from anyone in her family) I have to say that if ANYONE in my family wanted to come and stay with use, regardless of whether I agreed with the reason for their divorce or not, I would allow them to stay here. Why? It would be better for them to be around Christians with guidelines in their home than to be out there where nothing else/or nobody else matters.

I have one brother who has been divorce 2x, another who has been divorced 3x and another who has been divorced 8x. One of the youngest ones has been divorced 1x, and one sister has been divorced 4x and she's only 29. Though Vivian and I don't agree with divorce, we know there are circumstances, such as the one mentioned above with my sister and the "mind game" IFB pastor husband, that I believe would make it permissible. He would not work to support his family of five girls and his wife, leaving my sister to carry that load while he laid about and went on visitation when he "felt led" to. He has played mind games on my sister and his daughters for nearly fifteen years, and then tried to have my sister arrested for telling him she was divorcing him. He has constantly harrassed her, tried to intimidate her and the kids and has gone to such lengths that he should be declared a mental case and sent to a mental hospital for observation. But, she didn't ask to come home or to go and stay with relatives. She's still in church, serving the Lord and growing now that she's out from under that mind controlling influence of unscriptural teaching and mental abuse. It came to the decision of divorce not only because of the mental, but he also threatened to "hurt" someone that night. This has been an ongoing process. Even since the divorce he has intimidated her, tried to get her thrown out of her SBC church she attends, follows her (STALKING, folks), and has tried to sabotage her real estate career so she will have no income and he can try to have her declared an unfit mother.

Diane, you and I probably do not agree with adultery being the only Biblical cause for divorce. I believe if there is a peril to those involved, wife, children, or the husband if coming from the wife, there are sufficient grounds for divorce. Also, the Bible tells us that if a man won't support his family, he is worse than an infidel. He has been reproved many times in marriage counselling for this, but has not heeded the counsel of other pastors, trying to start churches with no money or even a churchgoer to attend. All he wants is to be "in the ministry", "behind the pulpit". He doesn't want to work, and he's told our family so...the ministry is his work. If he's "worse than an infidel", then I believe this opened the door as an "unbeliever". He negated his side of the marriage vows when he would not support his family.

Now, in your daughters case, if she' just divorcing him because she doesn't love him, or they have grown apart, I'd say she'd better be buying some super glue and putting that thing back together. She's relying on emotion and not on Biblical principles. Love is not a feeling, but, an action. It is not a "chemical" thing alone. I know you're aware of it, but is she aware that marriage takes work and not just a few days, sometimes it is months, years, decades????

I will definitely make it a matter of prayer. I hate divorce!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
Being a child of a broken home, and having watched several of my sibling divorce (including one who was an Independent Fundamental Baptist preachers wife for reasons of mental cruelty and mind-control to the point of alienating her from anyone in her family) I have to say that if ANYONE in my family wanted to come and stay with use, regardless of whether I agreed with the reason for their divorce or not, I would allow them to stay here. Why? It would be better for them to be around Christians with guidelines in their home than to be out there where nothing else/or nobody else matters.

(snip)

The question here is whether we are trying to solve a problem our way (i.e. man’s way) or God’s way. Although God’s way is sometimes difficult to do, we must discern and do according to His Word. For example, your sorry bro-in-law should have come under church discipline long before this became a divorce matter. Scripture teaches that one who does not provide for his own household is worse than an infidel and has denied the faith. It sounds as this guy should have been approached by the church leadership and eventually be brought before the church if he did not respond. If he failed to hear the church and repent, then he could be declared an unbeliever and it would bring him under I Corinthians 7 regarding divorce. Have we no guts to do right as Christians? Furthermore, I understand your compassion for the wife (your sister) and children but many times God has great lessons for us in adversity.

Later in your post, you mentioned something about your bro-in-law should be in a mental institution. I disagree. Why do we give him a way out by calling his sin mental illness? He just needs to be confronted and held responsible for his sin. It is sinfulness and wickedness, not mental illness. God calls it sin and we ought to call it sin. We excuse every kind of sin today by calling it mental illness, compulsive behavior, biochemical imbalance, heredity, etc. If it’s true, let’s say that he is a vile wretch who has denied the faith. It’s his fault and doing. He needs to repent and get right with God.

The bottom line is: Do we do it God’s way or do we do it our way?

 

[AVL1984]

I don't believe that my ex-BIL's problem is all sin. I believe he does have some mental problems, and has had for many, many years. I believe he is very much bi-polar...a chemical imbalance in the brain. But, that aside, I know for a fact that he is lazy. I also know that he has not tried to reconcile in a Godly manner, but has tried to use intimidation as a means of reconciliation. He has also used their children as a "spy network" and a source of intimidation by telling the kids that "God is going to get your mother". This is totally unacceptable.

Being the "Pastor" of his church, he had NO ACCOUNTABILITY to anyone, as we have found to be the case in most IFB churches we have attended. But, AFTER the divorce petition was filed, he "stepped aside" but, did not resign until the divorce was final. Again, this is something I have seen common in many IFB churches. I have been a member of seven churches that have experienced the same thing. The church dissolved the same Sunday, or the Sunday following. It was a small church, many of them being my ex-BIL's relatives, ie, parents, siblings, etc. Do you think they would side with the Lord and discipline one of their own? Definitely not. But, they have gone after my sister with a vengeance.

I believe his mental illness has led him further into sin. As stated, because of this imbalance, he cannot/will not see the forest for the trees, even when it is clearly pointed out to him, and it has been by pastors, friends, our family, and even my sisters pastor. It is indeed a sad thing. I do agree that he needs to repent and get right with God. I'm praying he does. I'm also praying for reconciliation as the final result. I do not hate him, nor do I dislike him personally. I do, however, dislike his actions, his abuse and divisiveness and laziness. God is the only one who can open his eyes.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

All I have to say is that I would never turn my children away. As long as I have a roof - so do they...

Just adding my

§ue

 

[AVL1984]

LOL....Sue, I feel the same way. I'd even let my ex-BIL stay here if he'd work, try to get himself straightened around, and do what's right for his wife and family. But, I don't forsee that happening anytime near soon. I usually don't turn anyone away unless they are known pedophiles, murderers, or want to get into my Hershey's Syrup!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
I don't believe that my ex-BIL's problem is all sin. I believe he does have some mental problems, and has had for many, many years. I believe he is very much bi-polar...a chemical imbalance in the brain. But, that aside, I know for a fact that he is lazy. I also know that he has not tried to reconcile in a Godly manner, but has tried to use intimidation as a means of reconciliation. He has also used their children as a "spy network" and a source of intimidation by telling the kids that "God is going to get your mother". This is totally unacceptable.

Is there really mental illness? Mental illness is a figment of psychology. The mind, except for brain injury or organic illness, doesn’t get sick like the body. The supposed chemical imbalance is all hooey. How does one know there’s an imbalance? No one, and I literally mean no one, has been able to get inside the brain and measure the psychotropic chemicals there. It’s all speculation and guesswork.

I have a perfectly legitimate and different explanation. Behavior does affect brain chemistry. Habitual behavior and thought patterns actually change the biochemical pathways of the brain so that certain thoughts and behaviors become habitual and familiar. Thus, it’s easier to do those things or think those thoughts. After awhile, one tends to lose control. Yes, it is harder to resist a drink or a smoke after you have been doing it for years. The biochemical pathways are established, thus making it easier to follow the pattern. The same is true of sexual behavior, vocabulary (i.e. swearing & profanity), outbursts of anger and temper, and any other aberrant behavior or thought. Weird behavior breeds weird behavior. So, I contend that sin breeds sin until it controls the individual. When this level is reached, the secular psychologists begin talking about addiction, chemical imbalances and mental illnesses which can be better understood as habitual behavior and thinking. So, it is sin. When man truly repents, he changes his mind and thought patterns about his sin.

Being the "Pastor" of his church, he had NO ACCOUNTABILITY to anyone, as we have found to be the case in most IFB churches we have attended. But, AFTER the divorce petition was filed, he "stepped aside" but, did not resign until the divorce was final. Again, this is something I have seen common in many IFB churches. I have been a member of seven churches that have experienced the same thing. The church dissolved the same Sunday, or the Sunday following. It was a small church, many of them being my ex-BIL's relatives, ie, parents, siblings, etc. Do you think they would side with the Lord and discipline one of their own? Definitely not. But, they have gone after my sister with a vengeance.

I believe his mental illness has led him further into sin. As stated, because of this imbalance, he cannot/will not see the forest for the trees, even when it is clearly pointed out to him, and it has been by pastors, friends, our family, and even my sisters pastor. It is indeed a sad thing. I do agree that he needs to repent and get right with God. I'm praying he does. I'm also praying for reconciliation as the final result. I do not hate him, nor do I dislike him personally. I do, however, dislike his actions, his abuse and divisiveness and laziness. God is the only one who can open his eyes.

Yep, he has a good excuse for his sin—mental illness. He is never going to change until he faces his sin and self. It’s conviction, confession, and repentance that he needs, not therapy.

The other problem is with the church. Well, let’s leave that to another time.