Divorced in Church Roles

Oh, it was totally tongue in cheek and sarcastic. My point is that we are willing to forgive just about everything except divorce and adultery, so it must be the sins God can't forgive either so they must not be covered by the blood. Please, don't take what I said as an accusation.

I'm actually siding with Worthy Is the Lamb.

 

The question has nothing to do with forgiveness, it has to do with qualification for the two scriptural offices, elder and deacon. Most men and all women are unqualified for these offices. The lists are very plain and simple, and start with the qualifier "must." The second qualification given for elders in both 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1, is that they must be (literal Greek), "a man (andra, male) of the one-woman kind." It is possible to read this, as a mutual friend of ours does, that a divorced man can be considered subjectively a man of the one-woman kind after a long period of time, but it is equally (or more) possible to read the qualification as forbidding a divorced and remarried man from the eldership or the diaconate.

In either case, it is a distraction and a mis-direction of the discussion to talk about forgiveness of sin as being any part of this. An elder or deacon MUST meet the qualifications listed in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1. A man who is NOT "of the one-woman kind" (however one reads that) is not qualified, just as a woman is not qualified, or a novice is not qualified, or a brawler is not qualified, etc. Again, MOST men, and ALL women are unqualified. I have been asked many times "What if a woman is called to be a pastor?" My answer is this: God is not schizophrenic, senile, or inconsistent. God would not write one thing and do another.

 

Major B, you are correct. I do not believe a man who is divorced and remarried is qualified to be either a pastor/elder or deacon.

My comment was aimed in two other directions, and I'm sorry I did not make it clear.

First, I do not believe that divorce-remarriage disqualifies a man from preaching, only from pastoring. Nor do I think it disqualifies a man from teaching or holding other positions of service/leadership in his church. It is in that context that I commented that divorce seems to be the unforgiveable sin, not to God, but to some Christians.

I have not quite arrived at a firm view on whether divorce alone disqualifies one from pastoring. I'm leaning toward no; that the remarriage is the disqualifier. But I am open to more light on that question. I'd welcome your counsel, and that of anyone else who wants to chime in.

 

This is becoming a theological football. Your former pastor, and the pastor of the church up the road from yours are fast friends and agree on most things, but unless I am mistaken, they take differing positions on this. I do agree that non-office service in the church should not be a problem in and of itself.

By the way, I am still the long-term pulpit supply at FBC Clinton. A great healing has taken place in my wife's heart.

 

Thanks for your counsel. I'm sure things are going well at FBC Clinton under your stewardship. And I'm glad to hear about your wife's heart healing. God is obviously at work in your lives.

 

I really do hope that the "we" doesn't include me in the area you make that accusation of unforgiveness. I hold no veiw as such to be misconstrued as such

The reality, um, (remember reality?), is that the consequences for sin never change.

The effects of divorce on all persons concerned are not displaced nor done away by the Blood of Christ. That is where the sin ultimately has its discourse of so many negative concurances.

Of course the Blood is where cleansing occurs, and grace is where forgiveness is found, but you're speaking as if the consequences never exist.

Allowing hardness of heart to have precedence over a living institution is flat out wrong.

Divorce is a mechanism of man attempting to put to death that which God made alive. A colloquial regard as if that could be accomplished is merely words without substance.

You speak as if divorce is judgement on God's behalf for sin that could be otherwise covered by the Blood. Yet divorce remains a mechanism of man to nullify a covenant of God.


To speak of marriage as only a comitment, you would be justified in your belief, but marriage is much more than a commitment, it is a COVENANT.:godisgood:

 

Not really. To hold any position in the church requires a quick to forgive attitude. Anyone allowing a root of bitterness to exist cannot effectively do a work for God. Period.

Glad to hear of that healing.:godisgood:

 

I am offering up a prayer for you today. My prayer is this that you don't expreience divorce in your life. Your fault, her fault, or nobodys fault. :godisgood:

 

Actually, divorce is a mechanism of God to right a wrong caused by man - putting away your wife.

Deut 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Unless, of course, you are saying that Deuteronomy is not part of the Word of God.

 

OK, so tell us how you think God justly allows a hardheart to have precedence over the dictate of forgiveness?

The man's heart has become hard towards his bride due to overzealous and over exhuberant expectations of her, thus the "no favour in his eyes".

Divorce is only a judicial act in man's court of law. Now I suppose you will say man has a right to take that which is no longer twain and put asunder.:tonofbricks:

All of the Pentetuech is God's word, but Moses gave man the permissiveness to divorce due to something God does not allow/ hardheartedness.

Please explain how it is you pit God against himself in this way?

 

God put it in His Book. I guess you'll have to ask Him. Or, maybe, change your perception of the whole situation.


Salamander, you said:

Now I suppose you will say man has a right to take that which is no longer twain and put asunder.

​

Actually, God said that man has a right to take that which is no longer twain and put asunder.

If you have issues with that you need to take it up with God.

 

Actually God said that which he has joined together let no man put asunder.

God joins one man with one woman in holy matrimony into one flesh, not for man to put asunder.

Of course the usual reply is as you made when one cannot deal with the facts when they are made so clear.

I suppose now you will resort to saying that all marriages are not God's joining them together? Mistake. It's the vow that makes them no longer twain. The vow of holy matrimony is to God, not to each other.

Remember, the vow explicitly states, "'Til death do us part".

Since life is in the hand of God and death is only the vehicle to release us from this mortality into the eternal, the vow is to God and according to God's giving life and joining the two into one flesh.

Man didn't join them, God did. Thus man is not able to separate them, they are forever jouined until death.

Now if you have a problem with that go take it up with God, I'm sure research, rather than emotionalism, will allow God to cause you to rethink your position.:godisgood:

 

Could someone loan him a Bible and help him turn to Detut 14:1.

 

¶Ye [are] the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

Now, read Deuteronmy 24:2: And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's [wife].



Use your Hebrew lexicon and tell me where the Hebrew says "may go" is permission to marry another?

Then read Deuteronmy 24:3: And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her [to be] his wife;

Then please explain what it is that defiled the wife that the first husband not take her to be his wife again in Deuteronomy 24:4:Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that [is] abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

Again, use your Hebrew lexicon and see where it is sexual defilement .

Sexual defilement is adultery. Put this in context with Hebrews 4:13
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Strong's Number: 2930[/FONT])m+[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Word Origin[/FONT] )m+ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]a primitive root[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Tame'[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]taw-may'[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TWOT[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Verb[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]809[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. to be unclean, become unclean, become impure
   1. (Qal) to be or become unclean
      1. sexually
      2. religiously
      3. ceremonially
   2. (Niphal)
      1. to defile oneself, be defiled 1b
   3. sexually 1b
   4. by idolatry 1b
   5. ceremonially
      1. to be regarded as unclean
   6. (Piel)
      1. to defile 1c
   7. sexually 1c
   8. religiously 1c
   9. ceremonially
      1. to pronounce unclean, declare unclean (ceremonially)
      2. to profane (God's name)
   10. (Pual) to be defiled
   11. (Hithpael) to be unclean
   12. (Hothpael) to be defiled

If you want to play with the big dogs you'll have to quit panting like a puppy.

Now go learn how to rightly divide the word of Truth!:godisgood:
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You just proved my point. thank you.

 

The only point I see you try to make is this permissiveness to divorce and remarry, which the Bible never gives anything less than to remarry is adultery/ no exception.

Jesus pointed out the misconception to the "exclusion clause".

The wife of the first marriage was not defiled until the second vow.

Now if you've got a "point" contrary to that, let's hear it.raying:

It would do us all good to take Hebrews 13:4 into proper consideration that marraige does away with alot of sins committed prior.

 

It depends if they are divorced for the right reason. That goes for anyone who is in a postion in church.


1 Timothy Chapter 3
1: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4: One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5: (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7: Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8: Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9: Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10: And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11: Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12: Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13: For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14: These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15: But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

Could you be more specific how it is divorce is ever for any "right" reason?

Seems more divorce is man's way of taking revenge and a cowardly act of human injustice.

 

Adultery


...

 

from the Christian think tank site:

There is evidence of the practice of polygamy in Palestinian Judaism in NT times (cf. J. Jeremias, Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus: An Investigation into Economic and Social Conditions during the New Testament Period, 1969, 90, 93, 369f.). Herod the Great (37-4 B.C.) had ten wives (Josephus, Ant. 17, 19f.; War 1,562) and a considerable harem (War 1,511). Polygamy and concubinage among the aristocracy is attested by Josephus, Ant. 12, 186ff.; 13, 380; War 1, 97. The continued practice of levirate marriage (Yeb. 15b) evidently led to polygamy, which was countenanced by the school of Shammai but not by that of Hillel. [NIDNTT:s.v. "Marriage, adultery, bride, bridegroom"]


with the polygamous practices in N.T.times...

I am with the husband of one wife at a time school of thought.