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Do A Mils See the second coming As Same event of GWT?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
What in the world do you mean by "saints and sinners glorified"? And who are these "sinners" who will be "glorified"?
The ones who have been justified
Sinners who have been justified are saints.
Those whose lives are formed by sin and willfully engage in it in defiance of God will not be glorified. They will be raised (presumably in their bodies of flesh) for final judgement, but they do not obtain eternal life. Eternal life is reserved for those who are in Christ.
Did not the Cross though purchase for even the lost glorified bodies, as they do not experience eternal life, which is being with God in His presense forever, but still will live on forever, correct?
And will they be raised up by Jesus ay His second coming, or is it just the saved first, and then later on the second resurrection of the lost?
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I can't find that teaching in scripture. If you know where that is, please inform me.
If you look at the message of Jesus (and I mean that very literally and specifically - go read the gospels and pay attention to what Jesus says), Jesus always contrasts the fates of those who enter into the Kingdom of God according to His word, and those who refuse. It is the difference between eternal life and perishing/death. When you have a good handle on the message of Jesus from the gospels, then go read the rest of the New Testament and see how it aligns nicely with what Jesus said. Then consider this, the image of the Tree of Life in the garden of Eden shows the sustenance of life for those in God's care, but humankind is barred from the Tree in Genesis 3. The symbol of the Tree of Life returns in Revelation 22:2, enabling humankind to experience continual healing. In the absence of the Tree of Life, humankind experiences physical illness and death. Those who are cast into the Lake of Fire are still separated from the Tree of Life and there does not seem to be any indication that they survive the consuming fire.
Jesus didn't give me a program of the Last Judgment, so I don't know how all of the process works (others around here may think they know exactly what happens), but it seems that all will be raised for the Last Judgment in the same unchanged bodies we are using today. That is based on my limited understanding, so feel free to disagree with everything I have written.
NOTE: I don't check in here very often, but I responded to this question about a week ago and a bunch of posts seem to be missing.
I'll respond in brief:
Those who refuse to be part of the Kingdom of God (refuse to submit to God) will face destruction.
Just like Jesus taught, those who enter the kingdom of God have eternal life. Those who do not, perish.
I believe in the physical death/grave (sheol).
I believe in a literal Gehenna, the place just outside Jerusalem, which is an image of shame and destruction which seems to be used symbolically to indicate a rebellious person's destiny.
I believe in a lake of fire as depicted in Revelation, although I have no strong opinion as to whether or not it is literal. What is certain, it that it is a place/means of destruction and the second death. Whether it is literal or symbolic, it is effective in it's work.
I'll respond in brief:
No, not at all.
Those who refuse to be part of the Kingdom of God (refuse to submit to God) will face destruction.
Just like Jesus taught, those who enter the kingdom of God have eternal life. Those who do not, perish.
There are a couple of different words that were translated "hell" in the King James translation. Let me explain it this way.
I believe in the physical death/grave (sheol).
I believe in a literal Gehenna, the place just outside Jerusalem, which is an image of shame and destruction which seems to be used symbolically to indicate a rebellious person's destiny.
I believe in a lake of fire as depicted in Revelation, although I have no strong opinion as to whether or not it is literal. What is certain, it that it is a place/means of destruction and the second death. Whether it is literal or symbolic, it is effective in it's work.
The problem though is that destruction in the biblical term used does not mean that we cease to exist, but that one is stuck in a ruined state, as eternal seperation from God is not to have eternal life in sense of same life God has for us, but to experience eternity apart from Him...
Hell is eternal state, as we do not just go up in smoke and cease to exist!
That would mean that there is really no difference in judgement for a Hitler or a 'nice" lost sinner, as all would get smoked!
Hell is eternal state, as we do not just go up in smoke and cease to exist!
That would mean that there is really no difference in judgement for a Hitler or a 'nice" lost sinner, as all would get smoked!
To which "biblical term" do you refer?
Yes, this is the assertion of the most popular viewpoint of the final state of the wicked - eternal conscious torment. However, there are only one or two verse in scripture that can be interpreted to suggest this position, while - in my opinion - the vast scope of biblical evidence points to the final state of the wicked being death – unconscious destruction.
You are doing some strange things with words when you advocate your position. You suggest that the eternal life that Jesus talks about is a blessed eternity, and the death/perishing that Jesus contrasts with it is ALSO eternal life, but somehow not blessed. If that were the case, it seems to me that Jesus would make a distinction between blessed life and cursed life without ever bringing up anything about it being eternal - because that would be irrelevant.
Moreover, the very idea that humankind would continue to live eternally, separated from God, is to abhorrent a thought for God to contemplate (Genesis 3:22) and so he has prevented humankind from accessing the “tree of life” (allowing eternal life) unless they have been redeemed through Jesus in the new creation (Revelation 22:2). By the time the tree of life becomes accessible again, all those who have opposed God have been cast into the lake of fire, which is plainly described as the “second death.” (Revelation 20:14 and 21:8).
Isaiah 66:22-24 gives a vision of the final fate of the wicked that Jesus cites:
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth I am about to make will remain standing before me,” says the Lord, “so your descendants and your name will remain. From one month to the next and from one Sabbath to the next, all people will come to worship me,” says the Lord. “They will go out and observe the corpses of those who rebelled against me, for the maggots that eat them will not die, and the fire that consumes them will not die out. All people will find the sight abhorrent.”
If we are going to properly interpret scripture, we have to acknowledge that what is described here is NOT the torment of live people, but the destruction of corpses – death has already occurred and the bodies are being burned and/or eaten into their base elements. There is no one who will quench the fire before it has completed its job of burning the corpses. The bodies will not be buried with honor. The maggots do not die because they have plenty of nourishment, and there is no one to scrape them from the bodies so that the bodies may be buried with honor. They eventually become flies.
This is definitely NOT a picture of eternal torment.
Yes, that’s the assertion.
I will agree that the punishment is eternal in nature, but not in duration. I suspect that the duration of punishment for some will be longer than others.
This is a strange accusation against conditional immortality (aka annihilationism).
Eternal conscious torment seems to lend itself better to the idea that there is no difference in judgement for an extremely wicked person versus an ordinary wicked person. In that view, both would suffer eternally. If we concede that the wicked are not eternally sustained by God, then those who are exceptionally evil and destructive person, like Stalin, may well suffer a longer duration than the Native American who lived in North America at the same time as Jesus and never heard a clear presentation of the gospel and did not respond to the simple truths that they know.
Advocates of eternal conscious torment can assert that the torment is more severe than for those who are relatively more innocent, but at best, you are still advocating eternal solitary confinement for those who have mildly rejected God.
Of course, if you sent aside the prejudice that everyone has eternal life and read the scriptures carefully from Genesis to Revelation, you will likely see what I did – eternal life is reserved for God’s people. God apparently has no interest in eternally sustaining evil. In fact, the biblical story has the major theme of bringing justice to the earth and bringing to nothing those who oppose the Kingdom of God.
My journey in this direction began back in the late 1990s when I was reading Revelation to observe the themes of worship between the persons portrayed in the book. While I was reading, the description of the lake of fire caught my attention – especially the plain statements that the lake of fire was “the second death.” If the first death is the loss of one’s relationship to the body – and the body’s eventual destruction – then the second death was either the loss of something else related to personhood, or even the loss of the person altogether. To figure it out, over the next few years I paid careful attention to the way eternal life and death/perishing is used in the scriptures and was continually surprised to see that it was quite a bit different than I expected and had been told. I came to the conclusion that – just as Jesus plainly states – the choice is between eternal life (in the blessings of God) and perishing/death. I have privately asked many theologians and knowledgeable people over the years to show me a reason why I should accept eternal conscious torment, and the strongest reason I have been given is that it has a long and wide pedigree in Christian theology – although, not as consistent and popular as many might assume. As a Baptist, a long and wide pedigree in Christian theology is nothing to casually dismiss, but if that were the standard for theology, we need to begin infant baptisms immediately!
Indeed so.
Matt. 25:46. And these will go away into everlasting [Gk. aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [Gk. aionios] life.' The life and the punishment last for the same amount of time. Forever.
The punishment is indeed eternal. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Those who embrace sin and reject life in the kingdom of God face death, and will have no future. That's a different thing than conscious torment that lasts forever. Jesus has already referenced Isaiah 66 to tell us that those who are enemies of God will die and have their bodies consumed.
So you believe in annihilation? Not trying to lead you somewhere, just seeking clarification. Merci Monsieur.
I prefer conditional immortality, but I don't object to annihilationism. Frankly, I am convinced it is the biblical position and that transition began in me more than a decade ago. That conviction has not changed for the last five years. Since then, I have vigilantly watched for any argument or scriptural evident - including talking to every biblical scholar to which I have personal access - in order to hear of a reason why I should change my mind.
I am still open to it, if someone has an argument.
I think it is important to note that I am simply explaining myself here. I am not trying to convert anyone, just get them to take another look at the biblical texts with an open mind and decide for themselves.
Baptists can be exceptionally intolerant of this view and it is generally a death sentence to anyone who is seeking a ministry opportunity in a seminary or a pulpit.
If we are going to do that in the Baptist movement, I think it is fair to actually examine the issue scripturally instead of going with the flow of current popular theology and just assuming it is true.
If we are "people of the book," then we should carefully study it.
