New In Christ
New Member
How? I tend to agree that they do not exist. But if they did, ALL it would prove is that God has decided to create something else, somewhere else, without filling us in on the plan. No big deal.
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Do Aliens exist ?
- Thread starter Jesusfreak1981
- Start date
The Bible is silent on aliens (extra-terrestrial lifeform). It would not rock my faith if they were discovered sometime in history.
The Scriptures are silent on many things. It was not intended to be a textbook on history, science, mathematics or even language. It was intended to be the history of redemption in the hands of God, and His dealing with a certain peoples. On these points there are no questions that cannot be answered.
The most important fact of Christianity has to do with Jesus Christ and His resurrection. These facts of history can be supported both by the scriptures and by profane history, including the Jewish historian, Josephus. So, our faith facts are secure in Him and in His word.
Cheers,
Jim
The Scriptures are silent on many things. It was not intended to be a textbook on history, science, mathematics or even language. It was intended to be the history of redemption in the hands of God, and His dealing with a certain peoples. On these points there are no questions that cannot be answered.
The most important fact of Christianity has to do with Jesus Christ and His resurrection. These facts of history can be supported both by the scriptures and by profane history, including the Jewish historian, Josephus. So, our faith facts are secure in Him and in His word.
Cheers,
Jim
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Rev 4 and 5, in Daniel 7 and in Job 1 - God speaks of beings - that were not born "in New Jersey" so to speak.
Obviously - they are "mentioned".
JF's point is a good one - that the "flawed" beings that are represented as aliens in the current stories would prove "evolution" in the sense that it would show other flawed beings that simply "evolved differently" but basically have all of our same weaknesses and problems eeking out an existence in the universe.
Unless you want to propose that they too have a gospel and a savior to get them out of their mess as well.
But that is not the case. These beings are not the result of "evolution on another planet". Rather they were directly created by God and are fallen angels and have been on our turf for about 6000 years.
In Christ,
Bob
Obviously - they are "mentioned".
JF's point is a good one - that the "flawed" beings that are represented as aliens in the current stories would prove "evolution" in the sense that it would show other flawed beings that simply "evolved differently" but basically have all of our same weaknesses and problems eeking out an existence in the universe.
Unless you want to propose that they too have a gospel and a savior to get them out of their mess as well.
But that is not the case. These beings are not the result of "evolution on another planet". Rather they were directly created by God and are fallen angels and have been on our turf for about 6000 years.
In Christ,
Bob
Jesusfreak1981, when people consider what "aliens" might be, we tend to put supernatural characteristics on them. But assuming they exist for the moment, they would have to be made of matter and elements and be subject to physical contstraints; they would be creatures.
I would like to know from "aliens", if such existed, whether any "alien" in the alien civilization has ever killed or taken the life of another alien. How do aliens organize themselves and decide how to treat or relate to one another?
Who made aliens? The same questions I have about how all this universe could have just created itself and moves forward striving toward development would have to be answered by the "aliens" before they shook my faith as it were, although I can understand the tremor you say you feel when considering such questions.
If aliens ever existed, to me this would be like finding out a new species of "animal" existed when before we had no knowledge of such a species.
The existence of "aliens" would only double, triple, or certainly increase my questions as to how things were created or came to be in the first instance.
My question, that nags at me the way your fear nags at you when you consider the existence of aliens, is, what are we in where are this life came to be, and why? Why did all this nothing suddenly come into being, and form something, and drive itself forward to create alll this life an complexity, aliens included?
Who made the aliens? If the aliens were intelligent, did their societies ever have religious views?
I would like to know from "aliens", if such existed, whether any "alien" in the alien civilization has ever killed or taken the life of another alien. How do aliens organize themselves and decide how to treat or relate to one another?
Who made aliens? The same questions I have about how all this universe could have just created itself and moves forward striving toward development would have to be answered by the "aliens" before they shook my faith as it were, although I can understand the tremor you say you feel when considering such questions.
If aliens ever existed, to me this would be like finding out a new species of "animal" existed when before we had no knowledge of such a species.
The existence of "aliens" would only double, triple, or certainly increase my questions as to how things were created or came to be in the first instance.
My question, that nags at me the way your fear nags at you when you consider the existence of aliens, is, what are we in where are this life came to be, and why? Why did all this nothing suddenly come into being, and form something, and drive itself forward to create alll this life an complexity, aliens included?
Who made the aliens? If the aliens were intelligent, did their societies ever have religious views?
No, not evolved differently, but they could simply be another fallen race that has migrated to another world, like fallen men here landed on the shores of unsuspecting cultures. In fact, when my father, who is an evolutionist, tries to use that "what if aliens who are more advanced than us land here and do not believe in God" argument, (i.e. if they are more advanced, how dare us 'barbarians' say they are 'wrong'), all I need do is remind him of the conquests of the less civilized, by the "advanced" cultures (which he always railed against).
As for a savior, we of course could never know how God would have provided for them. But still, the insitence by many believers that there is definitely NO alien life is well outside the scope of Biblical revelation, (Ps.115:16) and a total waste of time arguing, and just another senseless dispute with the world.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
And then there is Ezekiel chapter 10. What was it that Ezekiel saw that he called "winged creatures with wheels within wheels?
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
He saw a vision from God. Full stop.
If these were aliens, would you contend that they had four faces, A cherub, a man, a lion, and an eagle (v14)?
Folks, lets be serious. I don't believe in "little green men." Millions of dollars have been made through fake photographs and silly books.
Even IF (which IMHO is a massive IF) they do exist they are a part of God's plan which a Sovereign God has not, in His wisdom, chosen to reveal to simple fallen men.
This kind of conversation is doing exactly what Paul warned another young man against -
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
JF, I am sorry that your faith is so easily shaken. YOU must chose to exercise your faith. Do you chose to believe God or your own doubts. No one can help you with - you must choose. If you choose to trust God that there are plenty of people to help you with your doubts and fears. I made a personal offer to you a few weeks ago which you ave chosen not to take up. The onus to believe or not believe falls back on you, my young friend.
If these were aliens, would you contend that they had four faces, A cherub, a man, a lion, and an eagle (v14)?
Folks, lets be serious. I don't believe in "little green men." Millions of dollars have been made through fake photographs and silly books.
Even IF (which IMHO is a massive IF) they do exist they are a part of God's plan which a Sovereign God has not, in His wisdom, chosen to reveal to simple fallen men.
This kind of conversation is doing exactly what Paul warned another young man against -
1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
JF, I am sorry that your faith is so easily shaken. YOU must chose to exercise your faith. Do you chose to believe God or your own doubts. No one can help you with - you must choose. If you choose to trust God that there are plenty of people to help you with your doubts and fears. I made a personal offer to you a few weeks ago which you ave chosen not to take up. The onus to believe or not believe falls back on you, my young friend.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The Bible says specifically that Satan was "cast down to earth" in Rev 12.
The Bible says specifically that Satan only represents earth - in Job 1.
The Bible says specifically that Satan is the "god of this world" in 2Cor 4.
A "universe" that is not only "in rebellion" but also "does not know who God is" - so "a major omission" especially if God knew they would eventually "come visiting".
But an evil angel duping mankind into thinking that this is what they are seeing -- that fits "very well". As 2Thess 2 states - powerful delusions and able to call fire down from heaven etc are in store for mankind from the demons.
So "yes" the evolutionists do have a point - the problem is - that with a vastly superior alient intelligence - that is fallen and evil already here - they miss the "point".
In Christ,
Bob
eschatologist
New Member
I had one roommate who believed that God was an extraterrestrial being. I said He was, because God is outside the limits of earth. He said that clay Sumerian tablets had depicted God as visiting here from outter space, I said that God is from outter space, and inner space too. I told him that God was not confined to space as we know it. My friend said that the account of Eve coming from Adam's rib was an example of cloning. I said whatever method works for God is fine with me. He used as his biblical proof for UFO's the accounts in Ezekiel and the fire and cloud that led the Israelites out of Egypt. He also suggested that the scripture in Genesis 6:1f was these extraterrestrials having relations with humans(of course just too days ago a christian suggested these were fallen angels). I then told him: If this extraterrestrial(God) came from somewhere in outter space, and with whatever technology he possessed had created life on this dead planet, and then created man on it, would not he be in every since of the definition-- be a God!
What is a further mystery within the Bible itself is the account when God marked Cain so that no one in this land where God would bannish him would kill him. How could there be someone there in the first place, since there is no reasonable evidence that there was some long period of time between when Cain slew Abel and his bannishment. Also, it is said that cain took for himself a wife from this region. Well my thought on this is to not get hung up on such things-- just leave it a mystery. If God wanted us to know these things He would have informed us.
Then you also have the dinosaur and caveman issue to further complicate things if you want them to.
Just have faith and go with God.
What is a further mystery within the Bible itself is the account when God marked Cain so that no one in this land where God would bannish him would kill him. How could there be someone there in the first place, since there is no reasonable evidence that there was some long period of time between when Cain slew Abel and his bannishment. Also, it is said that cain took for himself a wife from this region. Well my thought on this is to not get hung up on such things-- just leave it a mystery. If God wanted us to know these things He would have informed us.
Then you also have the dinosaur and caveman issue to further complicate things if you want them to.
Just have faith and go with God.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. The Bible "Account" Gen 2:4 of Gen 1-2:3 shows when dinosaurs were made - and when man was made -
#2. God was not born here - but is from eternity - alien just means "not from here".
#3. That is also true of the angels.
#4. It is also true of some other beings we see described in Rev 4 and in several other places in the Bible.
The "sons of God" is a phrase that can either reference God's intelligent creation (whether on this world or not) as in Job 1, or it can reference the faithful people of God on earth as we see in Matt 5:9, Deut 14:1, Gal 3:26, Heb 12:7,8 Rom 8:14,19.
Since Christ rules out the possibility of Angels having family units and hence no procreation in Matt 22:30 - the only option left in Gen 6 is that the people of God began to mix-marriage with the people of cain. The SAME error that brought down Israel.
So instead of some - wild alien story - in Gen 6 - it is in fact "the same old story" of the corruption of pure faith by compromised marriage partnerships with unbelievers - the SAME problem we have faced in every age since.
Mundane and commonplace "maybe" but a better and more supportable explanation than the demon-children stories that sometimes go around.
In Christ,
Bob
#2. God was not born here - but is from eternity - alien just means "not from here".
#3. That is also true of the angels.
#4. It is also true of some other beings we see described in Rev 4 and in several other places in the Bible.
The "sons of God" is a phrase that can either reference God's intelligent creation (whether on this world or not) as in Job 1, or it can reference the faithful people of God on earth as we see in Matt 5:9, Deut 14:1, Gal 3:26, Heb 12:7,8 Rom 8:14,19.
Since Christ rules out the possibility of Angels having family units and hence no procreation in Matt 22:30 - the only option left in Gen 6 is that the people of God began to mix-marriage with the people of cain. The SAME error that brought down Israel.
So instead of some - wild alien story - in Gen 6 - it is in fact "the same old story" of the corruption of pure faith by compromised marriage partnerships with unbelievers - the SAME problem we have faced in every age since.
Mundane and commonplace "maybe" but a better and more supportable explanation than the demon-children stories that sometimes go around.
In Christ,
Bob
Paul of Eugene
New Member
Don't be afraid of what is truly out there, of what is truly real. Whatever is truly real God had to have created it.
But the alien stories are SO unproved. Not one physical artifact. And you KNOW how good people are at faking pictures these days.
It doesn't matter why people do such things as make fake pictures. Its enough to realize they DO. Not everybody does everything they do for sane, practical, logical reasons.
I promise you one thing: God will be there for you no matter how doubts and fears intrude. Its ok to have doubts and fears, God doesn't worry about that as long as you are turning towards HIM.
I don't see where those verses prove there are no aliens, and Job 1 says nothing about Satan "only" representing earth. Satan is a spirit, and not confined to space, and even if he was, who says there isn't some other angel over other worlds. Of course, it became evident from our other debate that you don't believe God would ever create something and not reveal it to man. But man is not the center of the universe, and God can do whatever He pleases "out there".
Of course, this is not to say that alleged sightings are not Satanic/demonic hoaxes either. The point is, not to be swayed by them, or those reading some mystical significance into them.
I always went along with that interpretation, but still, it seems these unions produced some sort of super humans; "mighty men, men of reknown". In fact it seems these might be the origins of the "gods" of ancient mythology: (Hercules, Achilles, Mercury, etc.). This is what lends to the theory that the beings siring them were supernatural. How does anyone else explain the "mighty" nature of these men?
What is an Alien (from space). We all picture human like creatures with certain intelligence. What if we found life on other planets that was not human, nor very smart, but dog-like?
What is Gods promise to man? Why is man special and not a dog? GOD MADE MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE. He gave us free will and choice to server Him. He did not create other creatures for this purpose, nor do other creatures have sin.
As DHK said, an alien would be no different than another animal species. Unless we found out from them, that they created us in petri dishes and seeded Earth and made up God to unify people. Then if that was the case, would you not at least have the truth, which no person should really fear right?
The other question for those who think, is what would we do with aliens if we found them to be not as intelligent as humans. Would we keep them as pets, make them work for us, do experiements on them like we do on other life forms here on earth? What seperates humans in most of the world from animals and abuses? Intellegence. If we are smarted than a cricket, then it is ok to step on it because we don't like them. If an alien race found us, and was likewise far more intelligent, would they not treat us as mice? Who knows?
What is Gods promise to man? Why is man special and not a dog? GOD MADE MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE. He gave us free will and choice to server Him. He did not create other creatures for this purpose, nor do other creatures have sin.
As DHK said, an alien would be no different than another animal species. Unless we found out from them, that they created us in petri dishes and seeded Earth and made up God to unify people. Then if that was the case, would you not at least have the truth, which no person should really fear right?
The other question for those who think, is what would we do with aliens if we found them to be not as intelligent as humans. Would we keep them as pets, make them work for us, do experiements on them like we do on other life forms here on earth? What seperates humans in most of the world from animals and abuses? Intellegence. If we are smarted than a cricket, then it is ok to step on it because we don't like them. If an alien race found us, and was likewise far more intelligent, would they not treat us as mice? Who knows?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eric responds --
They do not prove that God did not create life on other planets. Rather - they prove that the "fallen universe" - the "sinful realm" is here - but not out there.
So in the opening scenarios where it is proposed that "aliens arrive that do not know God" - my point is that given that we already have evil angels here - who can "appear as people" - we would be easily duped by them.
Further - since the Bible specifically states that Satan is cast down to THIS world - we have good grounds to conclude that we alone are "infected".
In fact in Job 1- it is specifically "FROM" earth that Satan claims to come - and traveling throughout the earth is what he claims to be doing.
That is a highly speculative statement.
The Bible always describes the angels as having spatial reference.
God alone is omini-present.
Could be - but not likely since Rev 12 says that Satan AND his angels are all cast down to earth.
That would be an unlikely way to say "scattered across many worlds"
God would not create "Something FOR mankind" and then bumble by "not telling mad about that which was created FOR mankind".
Back to "the details"
In 2Thess 2 we find that Satan will present amazing deceptions. In Matt 24 powerful enough to deceive the very elect - if God did not intervene for them.
"Being swayed" will be the "rule" rahter than the exception.
Eric said
Gen 6 does not actually say that giants were confined to the children of the mixed marriages.
It could very well be the case that mankind was simply of giant stature then.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Romans 8 we are told that the creation on this earth is subject to decay and suffering as a direct result of man's allowing sin to come into the world.
IF God were to allow sinful man to spread the disease of sin - to other peaceful, deathless, sinless - living systems - living planets - then it would represent failure to confine the disease.
It is not likely that the Creator would allow mankind to GO there.
But - it IS likely that such sinless, peaceful places exist outside our solar-system and filled with life.
Nothing says "man is the only being with free will".
In fact - we know that the Angels freely chose to rebel against God.
No. An alien intelligent enough to exceed the speed of light - or to fold space and then come to this earth would be highly advanced and would have to "know God" as well as knowing about the sin introduced into the Universe at the highest levels - in heaven itself - starting with Lucifer the Covering Cherub.
Truth is fine. But what you propose is a "Gospel-destroying truth" not unlike Evilutionism.
The key would be to "verify" that it was true (as in the case of the mythologies of evolutionism - as they are refuted point-by-point).
The problem is that if the beings "lying to you" are in fact evil angles that have been here the entire time and have the ability to take on forms as they please - you have no way to "detect" the illusion.
The the Garden of Eden - Satan proposed "an experiment for Eve". But Eve was outmatched in intelligence and deceptive power. She had no way to "outsmart Satan".
Her only safe course was "faith in God no matter how convincing the experiments of the snake".
That's just "the point" -- they DID find us and they ARE here (Rev 12) and they DO redard us as "prey". Read Ephesians 6.
In Christ,
Bob
thessalonian
New Member
There are likely a couple posting on this very board. How bout that last guy.
Decay is everywhere in the universe. Stars die, etc. Physics is the same everywhere. This shows that Satan (or at least some other high ranking angel we are not told about) apparently had some influence in the universe. The Bible deals with Satan's relation to earth, since that is the only world revealed to us. Once again, these passages do not say that he can be ONLY here. Think of it this way: Men are under Satan's influence. If we could put one in a ship and propel it close to the speed of light, he could actually reach the galaxies in his life time (due to his proper time slowing down). Would he then be out of Satan's reach? As I said, the spirit world is not confined to space like we are.
They MANIFEST themselves on earth, just as the God/the Logos sometimes did. Just think: if God is a spirit who is not confined to space, and the angels can exist in God's realm, appear at His throne, etc. then they must share that un-spacelike quality with Him. Now, does that make them "omnipresent"? I don't know how to answer that, but of course they do have some sort of limitation that God does not have. They are not omnipotent, for one thing.
I didn't say they are NOT satanic...; I said "This is not to say that they are not Satanic..."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Eric responds --
No true.
#1. Dark energy and Dark Matter are "proof" that our physics fails in the scope of the universe.
It is like saying "miracle goes here" to 95% of what we "observe" in the universe because "our physics" can not explain it.
#2. The fact that a rock splinters - is not the same thing as the rock "dying". In Romans 8 it is this creation - this earth that is actually "dying" - living things - become extinct, starvation, predation, disease, plague -
None of that is observed outside of our world - and in fact it is not even "observable".
The point remains.
In Fact God asserts that ALL the stars are marching in order and not "one of them is missing".
Even the "Changes" we "claim to observe" are in fact - events that have occured in the very distant past -
In fact - cast "down to the earth" specifically is stated in scripture (Rev 12).
And "representing earth" is specifically stated in Job 1 when ALL the sons of God (those from other places) are coming before God - Satan "Comes from Earth" according to the text.
Everything "else" you have imagined here - is out of the void of what is not written in scripture - simply a guess. Scripture has guided us to the following.
Rev 12 -- Satan AND his angels were cast down to THIS earth. And is angry knowing that he has but a short time.
In fact the text says "WOE to those that dwell on the Earth for the accuser of OUR bretheren has been cast down - to earth"
Job 1 -- Satan comes before God - in that non-earth context - representing "Earth" and no other place.
2Cor 4 - it is THIS world - and this world alone of which we find the statement "the god of this world" regarding Satan.
And Rev tells us that when Christ wins - it is "The Kingdoms of this WORLD" that have become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. It is specifically a change HERE.
Pure speculation.
In fact Rev 20 points out that "confining Satan" to ONE specific place "the pit" IS indeed "possible". And Rev 12 shows that casting him out of ONE place and down TO another place (earth) is ALSO possible.
To continually "imagine" that the Bible is not correct, or not accurate, or not to be trusted in the way it has stated the matter - is to rely on "guesswork" in spite of the text.
#1. They are not God.
#2. They have no "God-attributes".
#3. The Bible DOES speak of them being in heaven AND MOVING to come to earth. In fact in Daniel 9 and 10 from the time Daniel started to pray - the Angel Gabriel was "sent" to Daniel. The Bible is not limited to "only speaking of earth".
And "still" it shows spatial reference "always" for Angels. Of God alone is the statment made that HE is everywhere. He alone defies spatial reference.
There is nothing that says that Heaven is not physical. In fact all the attributes listed for heaven ARE physical. It does not good to imagine "yes but that is not correct" because it is then "imagination in spite of the text".
I say - stick with the text - and you will be far more accurate in these things.
In Christ,
Bob
Harley4Him
New Member
Bob, can you please tell us the catholic view on aliens?
Just curious, what about black holes? No, that may not be "dying" in the sense of living things dying, but it is still decay, still destruction. Dark matter/energy is itself speculation, because the scientists have deduced there should be more more matter to stop the expansion of the universe. It is theory piled on top of theory, and you cannot make such a conclusion on it.
These still do not really say he is "confined" here. That would just be in the context of the earth. Someone can rule something without being physically there. But then SDA's I do remember do believe he is walking around here in earth, perhaps in a body. Still, what exactly does he do on the surface of the world? "prince of the power of the air" seems to point to a more spaceless existence. He influences people everywhere; not like he's here phsically, interacting with matter or something.
as for "cast down to earth", while your position is historicist, I believe that is yet future. I have always wondered what exactly that meant, but the emphasis is on him being cast out of god's presence, and then he will have some more influence on earth, somehow. Having a body, or walking around invisibly, I don't see what difference that would make from him still being before God. He does not walk around beating people up, or robbing, raping, or scaring people like a monster in a movie. He works by deceiving people, by capturing their minds. To you, perhaps the Twilight Zone representation of him would be accurate. You can contain him in a cell or closet even with a "staff of truth", and then you will see the major wars die down in the world (though sin and deception continue; just not as bad). Release him, and he zaps you with some energy, and then beomes invisible again. Or maybe it's like Steven King's "the Stand". Kill all the people off of the earth, and then he becomes more obvious as a person walking around.
That too, is not spatial. It is a condition of inactivity (the same one the Beast is in now-- it has not yet come to power yet, though, IIRC, you say it did ascend in 1798. Still, same principle. Bottomless pit is inactivity or restraint; just like the Tartaros the other angels are imprisoned in.
Who said anything about he Bible not being accurate? You're reading into it something it does not even say, and I am not even dogmatizing the opposite view. I'm just pointing out the Bible does not tell us either way.
The Holy Spirit "comes" to people, and this is not spatial. Of course, the Holy Spirit is God, but still, this is spirit, and the angels are spirit, and these properties God and the angels do share. Else, they would not both be described as "spirit". The angels would probably have some sort of limitation that God does not have, but that does not mean they must be confined to space.
Heaven is not "physical". If it is, then where is it, and is God then physical? The New Earth (which we often inaccurately call "Heaven", regarding our eternal home) will be physical (though glorified), but that is distinct from Heaven, which exists now (the New Earth does not yet).