Do Aliens exist?

[BobRyan]

Angels are in heaven without "a Redeemer".

The Myriads of Daniel 7 are "in heaven without a Redeemer".

There is "no sin to atone for" among those that have chosen not to sin.

Lucifer did not "Take ALL the Angels of heaven" with him.

And this opens a wide door to the Job 1 and Job 2 list of beings (and Daniel 7 myriads upon myriads) that also "chose not to sin".

However - it is true that Christ only died for the ONE fallen planet - the ONE fallen race, humanity. Christ came "as a man" as "the first Adam" Romans 5 (Phil 2) - not as any other Alien life form.

So this world "alone" fell and intelligent life on THIS world "alone" is the "offspring of fallen Adam".

But "what if" Satan is allowed to "present a story" about aliens on other planets that are in a sinful state that know nothing of our version of the "gospel"? (See the strong delusions to which God hands over the world in 2Thess 2 in the last days).

Superior technology and an "advanced" race would appear to us as "the enlightened view" where our own beliefs and traditions would appear as "dark superstition" from the horse-and-buggy centuries of mankind's isolated past.

It would be "hard" to stand up to that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

I totally agree with WallDoctor. He said it perfectly!

 

[John3v36]

Originally posted by WallDoctor:
So do you believe there can be extraterrestrials that have not sinned then?? Who will enter into heaven without a redeemer??

The angles who did not sin will be in heaven without a redeemer.

Could extraterrestrials that have not sinned also fall into the same category as non-fallen angels?

Saint John

 

[BobRyan]

John - you are correct.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[WallDoctor]

Let us not forget the distinction between the two intelligent beings in discussion.

Man and Angels. Angels are spirit and Man is flesh.

Aliens if they exist are also flesh and not spirit beings like the angels (and I know man has a spirit as well that's not my point.

So when we talk about other aliens, we must hold them accountable in terms of their flesh because they are not on the same level as the angels.

In that context, I still believe that all intelligence that is based in this physical world would be fallen like the rest of creation. The physical world did not fall into sin when lucifer sinned against God and was kicked out of heaven with his angels, Creation fell when Adam sinned.

Aliens who are physical flesh would be just as fallen as the rest of creation.

Lets compare apples to apples here.


And before this gets too revved up. Please recognize, I am merely speculating and since Scripture is very quiet on this topic, I would never be so dogmatic as to have my faith destroyed if Commander Spock beamed down in front of me saying, "Live long and prosper."

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Shall we all take a vote and decide whether or not there are any other intelligent physical races out there?

I suggest rather we wait and see.

But I do enjoy a good science fiction book now and then.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by WallDoctor:
Let us not forget the distinction between the two intelligent beings in discussion.

Man and Angels. Angels are spirit and Man is flesh.

Aliens if they exist are also flesh and not spirit beings like the angels (and I know man has a spirit as well that's not my point.

Indeed man has a spirit and angels have bodied described and seen in the OT and in the NT. The fact that they "can" fly or "can" choose to be seen nor not to be seen or "can" take on other physical forms appearing in Genesis "as 3 men walking" etc - does not mean they have no physical form - people simply make that up.

God is spirit - Christ is real - even now - in heaven - and "can be seen" when He chooses to be seen as we find in the case of the upper room.

The short-sighted efforts to put angels or God in a bottle claiming to know all that they can and can't do - creates limits for both God and Angles that are without merit.

WallDoctor

So when we talk about other aliens, we must hold them accountable in terms of their flesh because they are not on the same level as the angels.

The "level" is not the question. Angels fell into sin - and others did not. None of the Angels are God and ALL of the Angels are created intelligent beings.

That is all that is needed to "prove" that there are created intelligent beings outside of earth - some of whom have fallen and some have not.

The question then arises as to created beings that are not FROM heaven - but rather from a planet other than earth. (Something like we see implied in Job 1 and 2).

WallDoctor said --
In that context, I still believe that all intelligence that is based in this physical world would be fallen like the rest of creation.

No animal chose to sin nor do they have a sinful fallen nature. Only mankind has that - and it is only because we descend from Adam. And the ONLY reason Adam himself had that problem is that HE chose to sin.

No intelligent being - created by God (on this planet or anywhere else) would "be fallen" without CHOOSING sin or being a direct descendant of Adam. (See Romans 5).

The point remains.

Aliens - those intelligent beings outside of earth are NOT related to Adam and do NOT fall simply because Adam chose to sin.

But the bigger problem is as stated - that when a representation is made "as if" an alien has appeared - that knows nothing of the kind of Gospel proclaimed in the Bible - we have a problem. When they present a universe that is sinful or sick or fallen or driven by "natural selection" - death-starvation-extinction -- we have a problem.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Major B]

Originally posted by Paul of Eugene:
Shall we all take a vote and decide whether or not there are any other intelligent physical races out there?

I suggest rather we wait and see.

But I do enjoy a good science fiction book now and then.

My question concerns whether or not there are intelligent and civilzed beings on the Third Rock from the Sun (i.e., Earth)!

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Bob Ryan

Aliens - those intelligent beings outside of earth are NOT related to Adam and do NOT fall simply because Adam chose to sin.

But the bigger problem is as stated - that when a representation is made "as if" an alien has appeared - that knows nothing of the kind of Gospel proclaimed in the Bible - we have a problem. When they present a universe that is sinful or sick or fallen or driven by "natural selection" - death-starvation-extinction -- we have a problem

Okay, I do see your point -- if there are unfallen intelligent beings (the good angels) then there could other unfallen intelligent creatures.

I do not worry about this because 1)I am convinced such creatures do not exist, and 2)If they did exist, I am happy to leave the problem (if there is one) to God.

I love the idea that the vast universe full of galaxies, stars, planets, black holes, etc. simply exists only to glorify the majesty and vastness of the one true God.


Posted by Major B

My question concerns whether or not there are intelligent and civilzed beings on the Third Rock from the Sun (i.e., Earth)!

 

[WallDoctor]

Romans 8:19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Adam sinned---all of creation has been subject to futility and corruption. Everything in all of creation whether it be plant life, animal life, global, cosmic, sentient creation everything has been corrupted because of mans fall into sin.

That's good proof to me that any sentient life out their is sinful and in need of a saviour---one who only died for man.

And we were created in Gods image unlike any other created being. Mankind in relationship to the rest of creation is special. I feel sorry for any aliens out there who missed out on this one.

"Hello Mr Spock, Yes indeed, you are very smart---but your no image bearer of God"

 

[BobRyan]

The context of "The creation" is life on this earth - not a galaxy millions of light-years away from Adam NOR is it the created Angels NOR is it the Created Creatures in Rev 4 nor is it the created MYRIADS (of whatever they are) in Daniel 7 nor is it the created beings of Job 1 and 2 nor is it...

The creation completed in Genesis - in 7 literal days - is limited to Adam's home world, his home solar system. That creation - and that one alone is impacted by Adam's fall. Only humanity left the Garden of Eden. Only humanity's world is affected by sin. It was our only dominion and the only thing that Satan could take from us - under the banner of sin and rebellion.

So "yes" a Vulcan alien knowing nothing of the gospel and claiming wars, starvation, extinction on his home world (you know - evolution) instead of a perfect universe like the Garden of Eden (and no Trinity, etc) -- would be a "problem".

Their claim that humans have been living in a dark isolated hole for these millenia and that is why we supertitiously cling to some errors about the universe and God and the gospel etc - will make more than "a little difference" - though you may not see that point now.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Do aliens exist?

Moreover, would it be significant one way or the other as far as the Bible goes?

In my personal view, as one who was once caught up in the whole UFO thing, whether aliens exist or not is a mote point.

Why? Because we are under God's Covenant with *this* Earth... Dr. Walter Martin, in dealing with the issue of infinite regression, stated it really doesn't matter if someone or something else created the God we know...

What matters is He *is* the Absolute Authority for us. And, He has more than enough power to deal with us individually or collectively.

Having said that...

It is hard for me to believe that a God with the Creative Bent our God has would stop at one universe or one earth...

However, I read a book once that made a very strong case for UFO activity being caused by demons.

His cases was based on the premise the satan is the prince of the power of the air and was cast down to the earth.

That many of the alien encounter and abduction tales have some of the earmarks of demon activity that missionaries have come against in foreign countries.

I personally lean towards that explanation.

If the Godly can be caught up to the third heaven and experience the wonders of that realm...

Why wouldn't satan be able to do a limited imitation on earth?

As for genius of tactic... You've to admit that it's excellent...

Great diversionary tactic... Causes doubts among Christian, even...

And, when the anti-Christ is delivered by a UFO... (Maybe an Italian youth 'abducted' in the late 50's to be trained for this very role?)

Declares all religious activities are counter-productive and illegal.

Why, that will be the (temporary) sweet topping on the cake for those that have opposed Christ all these years.

If I could write properly it would make a great book...

Just a thought... Hope it gave you something to think about?

 

[WallDoctor]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The context of "The creation" is life on this earth - not a galaxy millions of light-years away from Adam NOR is it the created Angels NOR is it the Created Creatures in Rev 4 nor is it the created MYRIADS (of whatever they are) in Daniel 7 nor is it the created beings of Job 1 and 2 nor is it...

I am interested how you would goto prove from scripture that creation means planet earth and not all of the physical universe.

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Everything God made was good and perfect before Satan fell and took a 1/3 of the angels with him and Eve fell by the temptation of satan.

Since than, God cursed the ground for Adams sake and all creation groans. On earth that is obvious. We see death did not just effect Adam but all animals and all plant life. The earth itself is ravaged by natural disasters such as tornados, huricanes, earthquakes and you name it. This is a part of the curse.

Take a step back and you look at the universe and you still don't see perfection anymore. Stars go supernova, Black holes absorb stars, UV radiation gives cancer, meteors collide, comets strike the earth. Even though space looks beautiful from a distance, close up it has been damaged by Adams sin because before sin, "It was very good"

So you are wrong, Creation does not mean earth--creation means everything God created.

And any sentient life out their that lives in our physical realm is effected by Adams fall---even if not exactly the same way by being direct descendants of Adam.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The context of "The creation" (in Romans 8) is life on this earth - not a galaxy millions of light-years away from Adam NOR is it the created Angels NOR is it the Created Creatures in Rev 4 nor is it the created MYRIADS (of whatever they are) in Daniel 7 nor is it the created beings of Job 1 and 2 nor is it...

Walldoctor --I am interested how you would goto prove from scripture that creation means planet earth and not all of the physical universe.

Context.

Romans 8 --
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We conclude that the bretheren are believers on this planet. We do not view this as "written to angels" any intelligent life on other worlds if there be any.

Romans 8
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "" Abba! Father!''

In Romans 5 we find that it is only the descendants of Adam are under the curse and enslaved to sin - so here again the "you" is just limited to intelligent life (humans) on this earth. Not on other worlds - if there are any.

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

The sufferings of this present time and the "we" in this case - all refer to life on this planet. WE have no reason to believe that Paul is talking about a fallen race on another world.

The context is still - this world.

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

The "sons of God" the "children of God" are all a reference to humanity on this world. We have no reason to believe Paul is addressing intelligent life on other worlds here.

THe creation that is subject to the slavery of decay and corruption - is subjected by the fact of Adam's sin - and it is Adam's domain that is corrupted.

If there are other worlds and other races - they are left out of this chapter entirely. Nothing in the chapter can be construed to address those races or their worlds.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

This is really - good as we see that the "redemption of the body" is the resurrection of the saints here on earth - the children of God on earth. The context remains - this world - this planet - the race of intelligent life - humans.

No reference at all to other worlds, other races or life on other planets being "awful". Christ came as "the Son of Man" not as any other life form.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Indeed and in those 6 days we see exactly "two" count them "two great lights made in the sky". We see One - count it ONE - World made with life on it. ONE world on which seas are placed and on which man is placed.

No other worlds, no other suns, no other moons, no other races of intelligent life are "Covered" in those six literal days.

Again - the context is this world - and this solar system.

WallDoctor --
Everything God made was good and perfect before Satan fell and took a 1/3 of the angels with him and Eve fell by the temptation of satan.

Since than, God cursed the ground for Adams sake and all creation groans.

True enough. The ground of this planet - no other planet is mentioned - and no other races of intelligent life.

WallDoctor
On earth that is obvious. We see death did not just effect Adam but all animals and all plant life. The earth itself is ravaged by natural disasters such as tornados, huricanes, earthquakes and you name it. This is a part of the curse.

Agreed. This was Adam's domain - mankind's domain and this earth suffers the curse as a result of Adam's fall.

We have no description of the behavior of Galaxies prior to the fall.

WallDoctor
Take a step back and you look at the universe and you still don't see perfection anymore. Stars go supernova, Black holes absorb stars, UV radiation gives cancer, meteors collide, comets strike the earth.

The comets are all within our same solar system.

The events that you see with Black Holes and Galaxies and stars - happened 1000's of years ago - as the light is just now reaching us.

Even though space looks beautiful from a distance, close up it has been damaged by Adams sin because before sin, "It was very good"

The problem with that speculative statement is that it is like saying that it is "bad" for a seed to fall to the ground, cause a splash, sink into the dirt and then have the plant burst through the soil. What you see in the Universe is no different. Calling that "bad" is highly speculative.

We have no evidence at all from scripture that
any sentient life out their that exists in 3 dimensional space was in any way effected by Adams fall other than to sorrow in our behalf.

Notice the argument from Romans 5? It is only because we are descendents from Adam that we suffer.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Spiritual Mad Man:

His cases was based on the premise the satan is the prince of the power of the air and was cast down to the earth.

That many of the alien encounter and abduction tales have some of the earmarks of demon activity that missionaries have come against in foreign countries.

This is what I said earlier! I noticed even before I was saved that many of my occult experiences (and it was in this country) paralleled those of abductees and those who "saw" aliens. Several years ago, I wrote a brief article on UFO/Aliens has occult/demonic activity for a Watchman Fellowship publication:
http://www.watchman.org/na/ufomontg.htm
UFOs AND THE OCCULT: A PERSONAL VIEW

Another strong indication of demonic activity: the messages from aliens, from those abducted, and from those seeing aliens is always against Christ as the only way and against the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

For once we agree.

And as time continues and the "strong delusion" of 2Thess 2 is open for Satan to perform -- what better candidate than to followup on some of those ideas - seeds already sown. A presentation of non-terrestrial beings who claim that WE are living in isolationl, darkness and superstition and that another "reality" and another "Gospel" is the real one. One that is marked by waring factions, survival, evolution and extinction.

(Hmm - sounds familiar).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[WallDoctor]

I agree that ufo sightings being demonic makes the most sense. I like that idea.


I still believe that outside of angels and demons, we are the only sentient beings in the universe.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't.

I believe the beings (myriads upon myriads) identified in Daniel 7 are not identified as Angels.

I believe the beings of Rev 4 are not identified as Angels.

I believe the Beings of Job 1 and Job 2 are not identified as Angels.

I believe that God created all He wished throughout the entire universe - AND ALSO created us. Our solar system was created in that literal 7 day week with Two Great Lights (not 3, not a zillion and 3).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[WallDoctor]

I don't even see what exact pasages you are referringf to in Daniel 7, Rev 4, job 1-2


Please clarify.