Do all things work together for good?

[SavedByGrace]

Did you not notice? I just posted the Liddell-Scott definition, and "blessing" was not there. Where are you getting your information? Because it is not from LS.

And no, "good" does NOT include "blessings." They are two different lexical units.

Liddell & Scott 1961 edition



Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Bilingual by Moulton, J H, Milligan, G



Robert Keep, A Homeric Dictionary

 

[SavedByGrace]

The image I see is the saints of old suffering as they are burned at the stake, trusting that God will make things right.

We endure suffering, we don't have to like it, suffering is not a blessing!
Saying suffering is a blessing belittles those that are enduring suffering.

Suffering is part of life, but through faith, we can trust that God will bless us as he will bless all his children, by the redemption.

Rob

As in the account of Joseph in the Old Testament, and millions of times since, and before, God can and does bring much BLESSINGS out of suffering!

Another great example of BLESSINGS and SUFFERING and more BLESSINGS is the life of Job

I am at the present suffering many health issues, with weekly visits to the hospital and doctors. But, I can see in my own situation, that God has brought much Good from this, and has indeed BLESSED my life! I feel the Lord is much closer to me!

We must not look at the small picture, but to see things as God does.

The Christian who is burned at the stake for their Faith, and in many other ways, do indeed suffer greatly. However, there is a BLESSING in there for them as well, because after their very painful deaths, the open their eyes and see Jesus! What Greater Blessings can there be?

 

[SavedByGrace]

And no, "good" does NOT include "blessings." They are two different lexical units.

are you saying that to be BLESSED is not GOOD? Or, a BLESSING is not GOOD?

 

[Van]

The image I see is the saints of old suffering as they are burned at the stake, trusting that God will make things right.

We endure suffering, we don't have to like it, suffering is not a blessing!
Saying suffering is a blessing belittles those that are enduring suffering.

Suffering is part of life, but through faith, we can trust that God will bless us as he will bless all his children, by the redemption.

Rob

LOL, Sir if ALL THINGS (including suffering) work together for good then suffering results in good, a blessing.

 

[Van]

Apparently the context of Romans 8:28 (verses 26 and 27) are beyond discernment. What are the contextual "blessings?"

1) God helps our weaknesses.
2) Guides our prayer.
3) Intercedes for us using groans conveying deep meaning.
4) And Christ knows those deep meanings conveyed by the Spirit.
5) God's will is to intercede for those in Christ, made holy by the washing of regeneration.

And all "these" work together for good (or for blessing).

Christ knows what those groaning convey, and they do not convey that suffering is a blessing.

All things is not in the text, and points away the contextual confines of the word translated "all." "All these" points to the contextual blessings in view in the context.

Romans 8:28 (interpretive translation)
And we know that all these work together for blessing for those who love God, who are called (into Christ) according to his purpose,

 

[Van]

Liddell & Scott 1961 edition

4. good, blessing, benefit
​

Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Bilingual by Moulton, J H, Milligan, G

Editor... the man will be master of many blessings and possessions.​

I doubt anyone denies that if these things work together for good, they are not directly or indirectly a blessing.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Liddell & Scott 1961 edition

4. good, blessing, benefit
​

Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Bilingual by Moulton, J H, Milligan, G

Editor... the man will be master of many blessings and possessions.​

I doubt anyone denies that if these things work together for good, they are not directly or indirectly a blessing.

you forgot the man who coined the Greek adjective ἀγᾰθός, Homer. see #21

 

[Van]

Five times in Romans, "all" (pas) is translated as "all things." Each of these would be better translated as "all these" (if the specific items in view are not indicated by the context.)

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things G3956 work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Here all these points to the blessings indicated by the context.

Rom 8:32
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all , how will He not also with Him freely give us all things G3956? Here "all these" points to His gifts of being predestined, called, justified and glorified.

Rom 11:36
For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things G3956. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. Here "all these" points to God's unfathomable attributes, riches, wisdom, knowledge and judgements.

Rom 14:2
One person has faith that he may eat all things G3956, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. Here all "foods" is the indicated scope of "all." Certainly poisons, broken glass, and other non-edibles are not in view. Note foods is in italics indicating the word was added for clarification.

Rom 14:20
Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things G3956 indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats and causes offense. Here again "All foods" is the indicated scope but we are not to eat in a manner that may cause others to stumble. If another believes some food is unclean and eats it because you (knowing the food is clean) eat it, you have caused the other to stumble. We are not to do that.

 

[Van]

you forgot the man who coined the Greek adjective ἀγᾰθός, Homer. see #21

I was simply drawing attention to the biblical evidence you provided.

"agathós" (G18) is used of persons and things, and when referring to things, they are beneficial and advantages to the individual receiving them. Thus work together for blessing is a viable translation choice.

 

[John of Japan]

II. of things,

1. good, serviceable, Ἰθάκη .. ἀ. κουροτρόφος Od.9.27, etc.; ἀ. τοῖς τοκεῦσι, τῇ πόλει X.Cyn.13.17: c. gen., εἴ τι οἶδα πυρετοῦ ἀ. good for it, Id.Mem.3.8.3; ἑλκῶν Thphr.HP9.11.1.

2. of outward circumstances, αἰδὼς οὐκ ἀ. κεχρημένῳ ἀνδρὶ παρεῖναι Od.17.347; εἰπεῖν εἰς ἀγαθόν to good purpose, Il.9.102; ὁ δὲ πείσεται εἰς ἀ. περ for his own good end, 11.789; οὐκ ἀγαθὸν πολυκοιρανίη 2.204:—ἀγαθόν [ἐστι], c. inf., it is good to do so and so, Il.7.282, 24.130, Od.3.196, etc.

3. morally good, πρῆξις Democr.177; ἔργα Emp.112.2, cf. Ep.Rom.2.7, etc.

4. ἀγαθόν, τό, good, blessing, benefit, of persons or things, ὦ μέγα ἀ. σὺ τοῖς φίλοις X.Cyr.5.3.20; φίλον, ὃ μέγιστον ἀ. εἶναί φασι Id.Mem.2.4.2, cf. Ar.Ra.74, etc.; as term of endearment for a baby, blessing!, treasure!, Men.Sam.28:—ἀγαθόν τινα δεδρακέναι, πεποιηκέναι confer a benefit on .., Th.3.68, Lys.13.92; ἐπʼ ἀγαθῷ in epitaphs, SEG31.797, 1533, etc. (Rom.imp.) τινος for one’s good, Th.5.27, X.Cyr.7.4.3; ἐπʼ ἀ. τοῖς πολίταις Ar.Ra.1487; οὐκ ἐπʼ ἀ. for no good end, Th.1.131; ἐπʼ οὐδενὶ ἀ. τῆς Ἑλλάδος X.HG5.2.35:—in pl., ἡ ἐπʼ ἀγαθοῖς γεναμένη (sic) κατασπορά PFlor.21.10 (iii a.d.):—τὸ ἀ. or τἀ., the good, Epich.171.5, cf. Pl.R.506b, 508e, Arist.Metaph.1091a31, etc.:—in pl., ἀγαθά, τά, goods of fortune, treasures, wealth, Hdt.2.172, Lys.13.91, X.Mem.1.2.63, etc.; ἀγαθὰ πράττειν fare well, Ar.Av.1706; also, good things, dainties, Thgn.1000, Ar.Ach.873, etc.: good qualities, τοῖς ἀ., οἷς ἔχομεν ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ Isoc.8.32, cf. Democr.37; good points, of a horse, εἰ τἄλλα πάντα ἀ. ἔχοι, κακόπους δʼ εἴη X.Eq.1.2.

Henry George Liddell et al., A Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1996), 4.

Aha! So my software evidently has "Middle Liddell," the abridged version. It does not have "blessing" in it, as I have shown. But you are posting the complete version, which does have "blessing." However, it does not present an actual usage where "blessing" is the clear meaning.

Other lexicons which do not have "blessing": BAGD, Thayer's, Friberg, Abbot-Smith, VBNT, Gingrich, Louw-Nida, Mounce.

 

[John of Japan]

Can anyone here give an actual usage of the word in the NT where "blessing" is the clear meaning?

 

[John of Japan]

are you saying that to be BLESSED is not GOOD? Or, a BLESSING is not GOOD?

There is a clear difference in meaning between "blessing" and "good." "Blessing" indicates a spiritual source for a happy condition, whereas "good" has a very broad range of meaning, and can be anything: good food, good deed, good person, etc.

So, to conflate "blessing" and "good" is to devalue the meaning of "blessing."

 

[John of Japan]

are you saying that to be BLESSED is not GOOD? Or, a BLESSING is not GOOD?

There is a clear difference in meaning between "blessing" and "good." "Blessing" indicates a spiritual source for a happy condition, whereas "good" has a very broad range of meaning, and can be anything: good food, good deed, good person, etc.

So, to conflate "blessing" and "good" is to devalue the meaning of "blessing."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can anyone here give an actual usage of the word in the NT where "blessing" is the clear meaning?

When God says He will do GOOD to His people, you can be VERY SURE, that this means BLESSINGS!!!

You are playing with word meanings!

I have shown that the word is also used for BLESSING, from the time that it was coined, Homer, as I have posted in #21. And that it is used as shown in L&S. It matters ZERO whether it is so used in the Bible! The fact is that it DOES include BLESSING!

 

[John of Japan]

are you saying that to be BLESSED is not GOOD? Or, a BLESSING is not GOOD?

There is a clear difference in meaning between "blessing" and "good." "Blessing" indicates a spirit

Liddell & Scott 1961 edition

View attachment 9262

Vocabulary of the Greek Testament Bilingual by Moulton, J H, Milligan, G

View attachment 9263

Robert Keep, A Homeric Dictionary

View attachment 9266

Well done. However, the Homeric dictionary is classical Greek, a different semantic ball game that may or may not apply to koine Greek.

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is a clear difference in meaning between "blessing" and "good." "Blessing" indicates a spiritual source for a happy condition, whereas "good" has a very broad range of meaning, and can be anything: good food, good deed, good person, etc.

So, to conflate "blessing" and "good" is to devalue the meaning of "blessing."

this is a nonsense argument from you!

HOW can the word that DOES also mean BLESSING, "devalue" its meaning? In INCLUDES "Good" and "Blessing"!

 

[John of Japan]

When God says He will do GOOD to His people, you can be VERY SURE, that this means BLESSINGS!!!

You are playing with word meanings!

I have shown that the word is also used for BLESSING, from the time that it was coined, Homer, as I have posted in #21. And that it is used as shown in L&S. It matters ZERO whether it is so used in the Bible! The fact is that it DOES include BLESSING!

Now who is playing with word meanings?

Look, I'm a Bible translator. In my work, we simply must look for exact equivalents. I do not see "blessing" and "good" as being exact equivalents in either Greek or English.

Got to run. Lots to do today. Nice talking to you.

 

[SavedByGrace]

There is a clear difference in meaning between "blessing" and "good." "Blessing" indicates a spirit

Well done. However, the Homeric dictionary is classical Greek, a different semantic ball game that may or may not apply to koine Greek.

this is strange coming from someone who does translations. It is not unusual for word meaning not to change, whether in Classical, Attic or Koine Greek, etc, where the MAJORITY of word meaning are UNCHANGED!

Just humbly admit that you are wrong on this what you started. I don't hold grudges...

 

[SavedByGrace]

Now who is playing with word meanings?

Look, I'm a Bible translator. In my work, we simply must look for exact equivalents. I do not see "blessing" and "good" as being exact equivalents in either Greek or English.

Got to run. Lots to do today. Nice talking to you.

Na! This is NOT the case. There are word-for-word, as much as they can be, Bible Versions; then there are dynamic equivalent Versions, and thought-for-though Versions...

your reasoning is very much lame!

 

[Van]

I was simply drawing attention to the biblical evidence you provided.

"agathós" (G18) is used of persons and things, and when referring to things, they are beneficial and advantages to the individual receiving them. Thus work together for blessing is a viable translation choice.

Not only does translating "agathos" as blessing at Romans 8:28 better present the actual message, it increases the value of the word's semantic range.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all these work together for blessing to them that love God, to them who are the called (transferred into Christ) according to His purpose.​