KenH
Well-Known Member
www.the-highway.com/Decisional_Regeneration.html
[ September 30, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
[ September 30, 2002, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
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Do Arminians Teach Decisional Regeneration?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Just as Hodge did, I agree with the underlying premise. Emotional appeals to add numbers to a roll of "who got saved" is very damaging indeed. However, just as Peter in his sermon asked the people to make a decision, we must do the same. From what I've seen with my personal experience, the majority of people actually get saved during the message, as they deal with the Spirit's moving in their life. Walking up front is merely a way to initially confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord.
[ October 06, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In fallacy of the Calvinist model is that the unregenerate heart can not be supernaturally enabled to "Choose" by the supernatural drawing power of God.
Calvinism denies that such a power exists - and insists that since God is not able to do that - he must First Convert the human - making them INTO the new creation - forgiven, born-again saint and THEN His drawing power - will finally be able to envite them to accept the Gospel.
The Arminian believes that the Drawing power of God - IS sufficient to allow EVEN the unregenerate heart to "See light" and have the REAL ability to "Choose life". In that unregenerate state - Supernaturally powered by God - the Soul HEARS the knocking at the door - and chooses to Let Christ IN. It is the model that Christ Himself describes in Rev 3 - Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking/Drawing/enabling those on the inside to HEAR, and to Choose, and to Open.
But I suppose we could "redefine' terms in Rev 3 such that it no longer says what it "appears" to say - just as we did with "God so loved the World"
In Christ,
Bob
Calvinism denies that such a power exists - and insists that since God is not able to do that - he must First Convert the human - making them INTO the new creation - forgiven, born-again saint and THEN His drawing power - will finally be able to envite them to accept the Gospel.
The Arminian believes that the Drawing power of God - IS sufficient to allow EVEN the unregenerate heart to "See light" and have the REAL ability to "Choose life". In that unregenerate state - Supernaturally powered by God - the Soul HEARS the knocking at the door - and chooses to Let Christ IN. It is the model that Christ Himself describes in Rev 3 - Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking/Drawing/enabling those on the inside to HEAR, and to Choose, and to Open.
But I suppose we could "redefine' terms in Rev 3 such that it no longer says what it "appears" to say - just as we did with "God so loved the World"
In Christ,
Bob
Scott Emerson said:
What if they hear the message take it to their heart as the truth but never go up in front and declare it? Does there not declaring it not make it so or must they confess it for it to be?... Brother Glen
ScottEmerson
Active Member
What if they hear the message take it to their heart as the truth but never go up in front and declare it? Does there not declaring it not make it so or must they confess it for it to be?... Brother Glen
I would say that it is impossible to believe in Christ, become saved, yet not confess it before men, as I would assume you would agree. Going up front isn't a magical thing, but hopefully, it is used to identify those who have placed their trust in Christ, even if it is merely for the other church brethren to note who are the new believers and do what they can to help the new sheep out!
F
ForumChaplain
Guest
Decisional regeneration....
Another man made catchism, looks bad for the opposition; looks good for us... Not grounded in anything.... Let's use it.
No one can prove it or disprove it because it means nothing..
[ October 06, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Bob Ryan,
Your understanding is well thought out to my way of thinking. Excellent!
Rev. G,
While Revelation 3:20 is not dealing with the sinner receiving Christ in salvation, yet these believers though being chastened as the children of God, still needed a definitive renewal of their faith. God says in His Word that the best path to renewal for the individuals in this Laodicean Church was to acknowledge His voice, to unblock their individual hearts door, insuring a renewal of close fellowship with the triune Godhead.
Notice that the renewed saints-- first had to ‘ . . . open the door' before God could respond by ‘ . . . coming into . . . ' the people of God. Even in this matter of spiritual renewal the human being had to use his or her will, before God could ‘ . . . sup with him.' If God respects our freedom of volition in restoration as Christians, He also regards the resolve of the sinner as to whether he believes or remains in unbelief.
Your understanding is well thought out to my way of thinking. Excellent!
Rev. G,
While Revelation 3:20 is not dealing with the sinner receiving Christ in salvation, yet these believers though being chastened as the children of God, still needed a definitive renewal of their faith. God says in His Word that the best path to renewal for the individuals in this Laodicean Church was to acknowledge His voice, to unblock their individual hearts door, insuring a renewal of close fellowship with the triune Godhead.
Notice that the renewed saints-- first had to ‘ . . . open the door' before God could respond by ‘ . . . coming into . . . ' the people of God. Even in this matter of spiritual renewal the human being had to use his or her will, before God could ‘ . . . sup with him.' If God respects our freedom of volition in restoration as Christians, He also regards the resolve of the sinner as to whether he believes or remains in unbelief.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hmm - context you say? What does the text say leading into these words about standing at the door?
"And you Know NOT - that you ARE spiritually Poor, spiritually blind, righteously unclothed, miserable in the eyes of God"...
I have to assume you would have us define this is the "SAVED, Born-again, New Birth, Transformed, Law-written-on-the-heart, IN fellowship with Christ" state??
May I suggest that you read the entire message?
"I will spew you out of my mouth"?? Are you saying this is the SAVED - losing salvation??
"Behold I STAND at the door and knock - IF any man HEARS my voice and OPENS the door"..
Are you saying that even if you don't open to Christ - and He is NOT "IN" - then you are STILL born-again, STILL saved? Seems like you are NOT YET saved in that case.
"You are naked" - unclothed spiritually - in righteousness - Without the righteouness of Christ - Are you really going to argue this as the "Saved condition" just because of your need to defend Calvinism??
I would argue - that you have gone way too far in your defensive position circling the waggons around Calvinism.
In Christ,
Bob
[ October 01, 2002, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Revelation chapters 2-3 is dealing with the weaknesses of the seven churches and not contextually with individual believers or non-believers. He is giving an overview of the spirutal state of these churches. When He says that He will ' . . . spue thee out of His mouth' He means that their usefulness as an Asian Church in those days would be at an end. Notice He calls the individual church person there to repent. This verse has nothing to do with loss of a persons salvation. The church had become ' . . . wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.'
The word, 'blind' does not mean blind like a sinner is blind to the Gospel, because in verse 18 He tells the church to 'anoint their eyes with eyesalve.' A blind person needs a seeing-eye dog not the Phrygian powder for the eyes manufactured in Laodicea in Biblical times.
God never spues Christians out of His mouth; He chastens and correct their erring ways and has promised that we would ' . . . never perish' [John 10:28b] and that He has us secured in not only His hand but the Father's grasp. [John 10:28c & 29d].
The word, 'blind' does not mean blind like a sinner is blind to the Gospel, because in verse 18 He tells the church to 'anoint their eyes with eyesalve.' A blind person needs a seeing-eye dog not the Phrygian powder for the eyes manufactured in Laodicea in Biblical times.
God never spues Christians out of His mouth; He chastens and correct their erring ways and has promised that we would ' . . . never perish' [John 10:28b] and that He has us secured in not only His hand but the Father's grasp. [John 10:28c & 29d].
F
ForumChaplain
Guest
From my perspective, to place a sentence or passage of scripture requires only a minimum of reading skills. Yet I often see many calling for context, context; that have obviously not done what they are calling for others to do. Not speaking directly to anyone in this thread.
Yet, is not to place a passage into context simply to limit it to the specific subject matter that is being discussed. Of all the literature that we read, the bible is most subject to passages being taken out of contex because we often start reading at chapter two, verse 23, rather than starting at the beginning.
An i right or wrong??
Yet, is not to place a passage into context simply to limit it to the specific subject matter that is being discussed. Of all the literature that we read, the bible is most subject to passages being taken out of contex because we often start reading at chapter two, verse 23, rather than starting at the beginning.
An i right or wrong??
Ray Berrian
New Member
Rev.G
I am glad we agree on Christ at the door of the church, but also read the last sentence of my post on Sept. 30 at 10:43. Do you agree with the last sentence?
I am glad we agree on Christ at the door of the church, but also read the last sentence of my post on Sept. 30 at 10:43. Do you agree with the last sentence?
Not if I understand you correctly. Those in Christ have been liberated from the bondage of sin. Those outside of Christ are still enslaved. Actually, let me modify my answer. The Lord regards the resolve of some sinners as to whether or not they will remain in unbelief. He regarded Pharaoh, He liberated Paul.
[ October 03, 2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
F
ForumChaplain
Guest
Not if I understand you correctly. Those in Christ have been liberated from the bondage of sin. Those outside of Christ are still enslaved. Actually, let me modify my answer. The Lord regards the resolve of some sinners as to whether or not they will remain in unbelief. He regarded Pharaoh, He liberated Paul.
</font>[/QUOTE]Rev. G.Betcha cannot produce a scripture that says that Pharoah was not saved. The thief on the cross was saved from the foundations of the world, yet for a time while he was hanging on the cross, you had him in hell.. Where the bible is silent, we should be also...
The day before Christ invited him into paradise, you would have been chasing him around with a match in your hand thinking that you were doing the lords will.
[ October 04, 2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
The context of the OT and from Rom. 9 seems to indicate very strongly that Pharaoh was not a redeemed man.
Rev. G
Chappie, I know of no gentle way to say this. This statement is stupid! Why in the world would I be chasing the man around with a match, and why would I think I was doing the Lord's will doing it? That is nonsensical! I think I would be doing the Lord's will to proclaim the Gospel to the man and to seek to win him to Christ. Period. Watch your tongue, brother (Jas. 3).
Rev. G
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the quote of Rev 3 - provided on page 1 of this thread - specifics about the 7th church were pointed out -- showing explicitly that this applied to the lost sinner. NONE of that CONTEXT was addressed in ANY of the posts that follow in their defense of Calvinism. It is as if "The TEXT itself" carries no weight with Calvinists. I urge a more careful accpetance of the Word in this case.
But - as to the charge that the messges to the churches do NOT addres individual salvation - please note - CHURCHES are not "saved" - individuals are. The promises are given and received "individually" else whole denominations would be "saved" or "lost" depending on your view.
The promises to the 7 churches must be received Individually - not corporately. God is not OUTSIDE the church knocking -
Christ IS the door of the church - but is NOT the door of the heart. When it comes to the Door of the heart - He stands OUTSIDE. (Rev 3) When it comes to the Door of the CHURCH - it is YOU that must "come in" and you must come in THROUGH that door. John 10.
The motivation to "Defend Calvinism" is clearly overshaddowing the details of the text.
May I suggestion is that Cavlinism itself is not quite that important - lets get the text back.
In Christ,
Bob
[ October 04, 2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
KenH
Well-Known Member
Hey, Bob, would you explain that to your anti-Calvinist amigos in relation to Romans chapter 9. They say that salvation there is corporate and not individual. May you can convince them that salvation is always of individuals and not of groups.
Thanks for your help.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
F
ForumChaplain
Guest
Hey, Bob, would you explain that to your anti-Calvinist amigos in relation to Romans chapter 9. They say that salvation there is corporate and not individual. May you can convince them that salvation is always of individuals and not of groups.
Thanks for your help.
Ken
A Spurgeonite
Bring on your potter and the clay, your hardening of Pharaoh's heart, your i will have mercy on whom i will have mercy, your what if God is willing to show his wrath. Show me how you mold these passages to result in elction. Show me what you got..... I'll show you that the bible did not say that....
Let's do some line upon line, precept upon precept kinda study. Any calvinist ready for this challenge. Call on your passages, i'll call on mine. Le's see which ones will answer by fire???
[ October 05, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]