Do BOTH Cals/Arms Affirm Doctrine Of Election?

[Skandelon]

what is being said here is that many non arms see it as being that God bases His grace/election upon the free will acceptance He foresees arms doing for Christ

No, that is not what is being said here. That is what I'm saying we don't all believe. The concept of foreknowledge and election is not about God looking down the corridors of time to see what individuals will choose and then choosing them. There may be aspects of that going on in the process, but I don't believe that is what Paul is speaking of when he teaches these doctrines.

Election is about a group or nation being "grafted in," as Paul puts it in Romans 11. The Gentiles were being "grafted in" while the Jews were being cut off. The revelation by which the Gentiles might believe unto salvation was being made clear to the Gentiles, but it was being hidden from the Jews. The Jews, known as the elect nation, were now being cut off from the special revelation of God and it was being sent to the Gentiles. "I will make for myself a nation that is not a nation..."

It is NOT about individuals, it is a cooperate concept being discussed. Now, there are times when God chooses (or elects) an individual for a special purpose (apostles/prophets), but this should not confuse people about the cooperate aspects Paul clearly explains.

The error in understanding biblical election comes when (1) the reader fails to understand the corporate nature of divine election in the covenants of God and (2) when people fail to distinguish between God's choosing of individuals for noble purposes (like apostleship) and the corporate aspects mentioned in the first point.

 

[jbh28]

To be fair, not all of us would describe it in this manner. I have to be honest. This explanation is one of the reason's I became a Calvinist back in the day. The idea that God simply foresees who will believe and then elects them is really pretty silly, and I honestly don't think that was ever the biblical author's intent.

I see why people so quickly dismiss Arminianism if they think this is what we all teach and believe about divine election.

so you say that there is no individual election for salvation, but group election?

 

[Jim1999]

So, God could choose Jonah to be thrown overboard for his disobedience, but couldn't order him to preach to Nineveh,Hmmmm

The limited power of God is impressive! Oh, by the way, WHY pray to God for His help?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[psalms109:31]

Jonah 1:
9 He answered, “I am a Hebrew and I worship the LORD, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land.”

10 This terrified them and they asked, “What have you done?” (They knew he was running away from the LORD, because he had already told them so.)

11 The sea was getting rougher and rougher. So they asked him, “What should we do to you to make the sea calm down for us?”

12 “Pick me up and throw me into the sea,” he replied, “and it will become calm. I know that it is my fault that this great storm has come upon you.”

13 Instead, the men did their best to row back to land. But they could not, for the sea grew even wilder than before. 14 Then they cried out to the LORD, “Please, LORD, do not let us die for taking this man’s life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, LORD, have done as you pleased.” 15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm. 16 At this the men greatly feared the LORD, and they offered a sacrifice to the LORD and made vows to him.

I think that the story needs to be told, what a message to us and to the people on the ship.

I could be called a today Calvinist before someone hears the words of life after I believe God will include anyone who hears the Gospel of their salvation having believes with His elect. That they will be added, which is meant by included right?

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skan,


This is flat out error.....no matter how you slice it

It is NOT about individuals, it is a cooperate concept being discussed. Now, there are times when God chooses (or elects) an individual for a special purpose (apostles/prophets), but this should not confuse people about the cooperate aspects Paul clearly explains.

The error in understanding biblical election comes when (1) the reader fails to understand the corporate nature of divine election in the covenants of God and (2) when people fail to distinguish between God's choosing of individuals for noble purposes (like apostleship) and the corporate aspects mentioned in the first point.

There is individual election unto salvation.....each member in particular is called by God.....living stones built up into a spiritual house.

This corporate baloney is a weak attempt to subvert the clear teachings of God's elective purposes.

14But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

16Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Among the church [Zion]....God assures each individual he will not forget them, anymore than a mother can forget a nursing child.

 

[webdog]

There is individual election unto salvation.....each member in particular is called by God.....living stones built up into a spiritual house.

This corporate baloney is a weak attempt to subvert the clear teachings of God's elective purposes.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw "baloney" around when you equate calling with election

"Many are called but few are chosen"

 

[glfredrick]

One teaches God chooses believers...the other God chooses to become believers.

Huh? You really do have a mixed up view of election.

 

[webdog]

Huh? You really do have a mixed up view of election.

Opinions are like nostrils.

 

[Tom Butler]

No, that is not what is being said here. That is what I'm saying we don't all believe. The concept of foreknowledge and election is not about God looking down the corridors of time to see what individuals will choose and then choosing them.

All non-Cals may not hold to election of individuals based on foreseen faith, but many do. In fact, over the past decades, that is almost exclusively the Non-Cal position that I have run into.

I understand the concept of corporate election, but in my experience it has been rarely used as an argument to counter unconditional election of individuals.

 

[Allan]

All non-Cals may not hold to election of individuals based on foreseen faith, but many do. In fact, over the past decades, that is almost exclusively the Non-Cal position that I have run into.

I understand the concept of corporate election, but in my experience it has been rarely used as an argument to counter unconditional election of individuals.

REALLY..?

I just think you live in a really weird place Tom cause I rarely run into it and get around to many places.

 

[JesusFan]

No, that is not what is being said here. That is what I'm saying we don't all believe. The concept of foreknowledge and election is not about God looking down the corridors of time to see what individuals will choose and then choosing them. There may be aspects of that going on in the process, but I don't believe that is what Paul is speaking of when he teaches these doctrines.

Election is about a group or nation being "grafted in," as Paul puts it in Romans 11. The Gentiles were being "grafted in" while the Jews were being cut off. The revelation by which the Gentiles might believe unto salvation was being made clear to the Gentiles, but it was being hidden from the Jews. The Jews, known as the elect nation, were now being cut off from the special revelation of God and it was being sent to the Gentiles. "I will make for myself a nation that is not a nation..."

It is NOT about individuals, it is a cooperate concept being discussed. Now, there are times when God chooses (or elects) an individual for a special purpose (apostles/prophets), but this should not confuse people about the cooperate aspects Paul clearly explains.

The error in understanding biblical election comes when (1) the reader fails to understand the corporate nature of divine election in the covenants of God and (2) when people fail to distinguish between God's choosing of individuals for noble purposes (like apostleship) and the corporate aspects mentioned in the first point.

So the Lord when he said "MY SHEEP KNOW MY VOICE" was referring to the Body of Christ as a whole, not individual members within it?

assuming that the Plan of God is what is elected, corporate election...

Again, on what basis were those found in it placed there by God?

Did He cause them to get in to the plan, or where they placed in due to their free will rsponse to offer to go in there?

 

[Skandelon]

so you say that there is no individual election for salvation, but group election?

I don't believe it is individuals being elected to be saved. It is about God electing to grant people entrance into covenant with him. In other words, God elects to send his special revelation by which they CAN respond. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 when he speaks about the Jews being "cut off" and Gentiles being "grafted in."

If that was a about individual salvation then you would have individuals being cut off from salvation...thus losing their salvation. That is not what either of us believe. Instead it is about being cut off from the revelation by which they might be saved.

God elects to send his message first the Jews and then to the Gentiles. That is election. He does also selects some individuals for noble divine purposes (like apostles), which causes some people confusion when then don't pay close attention to the context.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't believe it is individuals being elected to be saved. It is about God electing to grant people entrance into covenant with him. In other words, God elects to send his special revelation by which they CAN respond. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 when he speaks about the Jews being "cut off" and Gentiles being "grafted in."

If that was a about individual salvation then you would have individuals being cut off from salvation...thus losing their salvation. That is not what either of us believe. Instead it is about being cut off from the revelation by which they might be saved.

God elects to send his message first the Jews and then to the Gentiles. That is election. He does also selects some individuals for noble divine purposes (like apostles), which causes some people confusion when then don't pay close attention to the context.

So what was elected by God is first the Gospel Message as means to save peoples, and also Body of Christ was elected as a whole and depending on how we respond to message determines if elected into Body or not?

 

[glfredrick]

I don't believe it is individuals being elected to be saved. It is about God electing to grant people entrance into covenant with him. In other words, God elects to send his special revelation by which they CAN respond. This is what Paul is speaking of in Romans 11 when he speaks about the Jews being "cut off" and Gentiles being "grafted in."

If that was a about individual salvation then you would have individuals being cut off from salvation...thus losing their salvation. That is not what either of us believe. Instead it is about being cut off from the revelation by which they might be saved.

God elects to send his message first the Jews and then to the Gentiles. That is election. He does also selects some individuals for noble divine purposes (like apostles), which causes some people confusion when then don't pay close attention to the context.

You realize, of course, that you hold a minority position on this point. I find that God works both on an individual level and a corporate level. We are individually written into the Lamb's Book of Life, and once therein, we become corporately the "Church" also known as "the body, the sheep, the flock, the Bride of Christ, etc. I do not think that you can parcel out the imputation of righteousness to a people group, that is for individuals, who you admit must be elect (whether individually or as part of a set). As long as you are admitting election to salvation, why not just follow the doctrine and realize what Paul is saying -- that each of the people in the sets "Jew" and "Gentile" (or Greek, as the case may be) are actually individuals whom God knows and elects?

If we simply take the easy way out and suggest that God elects "groups" or as I've said it, "sets" then we are bordering on universalism, if not already there, fully engaged.

 

[Skandelon]

All non-Cals may not hold to election of individuals based on foreseen faith, but many do. In fact, over the past decades, that is almost exclusively the Non-Cal position that I have run into.

And that could be the reason for the resurgence of Calvinism, they think this is the only alternative. That's one of the reasons I was a Calvinist. The "foreseen faith" view is a weak, easy to explain view that appeases the masses, but it's no more biblical than Calvinism in my opinion.

I understand the concept of corporate election, but in my experience it has been rarely used as an argument to counter unconditional election of individuals.

Then you may need more experience.

 

[JesusFan]

You realize, of course, that you hold a minority position on this point. I find that God works both on an individual level and a corporate level. We are individually written into the Lamb's Book of Life, and once therein, we become corporately the "Church" also known as "the body, the sheep, the flock, the Bride of Christ, etc. I do not think that you can parcel out the imputation of righteousness to a people group, that is for individuals, who you admit must be elect (whether individually or as part of a set). As long as you are admitting election to salvation, why not just follow the doctrine and realize what Paul is saying -- that each of the people in the sets "Jew" and "Gentile" (or Greek, as the case may be) are actually individuals whom God knows and elects?

If we simply take the easy way out and suggest that God elects "groups" or as I've said it, "sets" then we are bordering on universalism, if not already there, fully engaged.

Is this a logical extention following idea that Christ died for all and all were actually in a real sense reconciled back to God, level playing field now for all?

Anything similiar to what Karl barth postulated about God had elected as a group all people in Cross of Christ, so corporate election in that case indeed meant Universalism, or at least all were saved unless one took themselves out by choice?

 

[Skandelon]

You realize, of course, that you hold a minority position on this point.

I hope so. Narrow is the path...

I find that God works both on an individual level and a corporate level.

I agree.

We are individually written into the Lamb's Book of Life, and once therein, we become corporately the "Church" also known as "the body, the sheep, the flock, the Bride of Christ, etc. I do not think that you can parcel out the imputation of righteousness to a people group, that is for individuals, who you admit must be elect (whether individually or as part of a set). As long as you are admitting election to salvation, why not just follow the doctrine and realize what Paul is saying -- that each of the people in the sets "Jew" and "Gentile" (or Greek, as the case may be) are actually individuals whom God knows and elects?

When you say something that makes me think you really do understand the corporate view of election as I described it, then I'd be glad to respond to any rebuttal you might have, but as of now these statements only prove that you have yet to understand the claims of this view.

If we simply take the easy way out and suggest that God elects "groups" or as I've said it, "sets" then we are bordering on universalism, if not already there, fully engaged.

Only if you impose your presumptions of effectuality upon the doctrine of election would such false conclusions be reached. So, please, actually deal with our views rather than mere perceptions based upon an un-established premise.

 

[glfredrick]

And that could be the reason for the resurgence of Calvinism, they think this is the only alternative. That's one of the reasons I was a Calvinist. The "foreseen faith" view is a weak, easy to explain view that appeases the masses, but it's no more biblical than Calvinism in my opinion.


Then you may need more experience.

The Arminian founding document (if we exclude the writings of Pelagius) states this:

Article I - That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.

It goes on to say this:

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."

The two statements seem to be in opposition to me... Either God does it, as in Article III or man does it as in Article I. I highly suspect that the reason the Remonstrance was declared heretical is in large part due to this sort of double-speak.

 

[glfredrick]

When you say something that makes me think you really do understand the corporate view of election as I described it, then I'd be glad to respond to any rebuttal you might have, but as of now these statements only prove that you have yet to understand the claims of this view.


Only if you impose your presumptions of effectuality upon the doctrine of election would such false conclusions be reached. So, please, actually deal with our views rather than mere perceptions based upon an un-established premise.

Perhaps it is that I do understand, yet reject that view as deficient. I know that it has swayed you, but not the myriad of Christian theologians down through the church age who have followed the text of Scripture instead of a man-first doctrine.

 

[Skandelon]

So what was elected by God is first the Gospel Message as means to save peoples, and also Body of Christ was elected as a whole and depending on how we respond to message determines if elected into Body or not?

I'm not sure I understand your question, but allow me to try and take one more stab at explaining my view in the most simple way I know how.

1. We believe men are saved (credited as righteous/justified) through their faith in God and His revelation. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness." "By grace, through faith."

2. The gospel is the special revelation of God by which He makes appeal to all mankind: "Be reconciled to God." (2 Cor 5)

3. WHOSOEVER believes that message (a divine revelation from God) will be saved by grace through faith.

4. The Jews had been the recipients of God's special revelation for generations, they were known as the elect of God (Rm 10:21). This revelation was made through the prophets and scriptures by which the Jews as a group were offered entrance into covenant with God. But individually the Jew had to fulfill his part of the covenant (i.e. circumcision). So, you have Israel (corporately speaking) being granted the OPPORTUNITY to enter covenant with God, but the JEW (individually speaking) had to meet certain requirements. Israel (corporately speaking) rejected this revelation and was unwilling to follow God in faith (Matt 23:37).

5. Enter Christ, the gospel, the apostles, the church..."Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

6. This gospel was sent to the Jews first, but they rejected it (corporately speaking). They were being hardened, or blinded from the gospel truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28; Mark 4; Matt 13; Rom 11, etc). They were being "cut off" from the means of salvation, the divine revelation of God. They used to be the elect ones who received the special revelation by which they could individually enter into covenant with God, but now they were being cut off from that source. (God did this to ensure the crucifixion and ensure the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the church)

7. So, once the Jews rejected the gospel it was sent to the Gentiles, because "they will listen." (Acts 28:28) They are being "grafted in" and thus granted the opportunity to enter into covenant with God. God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (corporately) by granting them repentance unto life, but just like with the OT covenant, there was a condition for the individual: FAITH. (God's acceptance of the non-Jew was the "mystery" being revealed for the first time in that day. It was God's predetermined plan all along to graft them in, they were foreknown from the beginning. But it was just being made known to the world at this time)

8. Within all this God reserved for himself out of Israel a remnant to carry the gospel message to the rest of the world. He individually chose them for "noble purposes" while leaving the rest in their hardened condition for "common use." (Rm 9). Paul is an example of one of these individuals chosen specifically by God to be a divinely appointed messenger to the nations.

In summary: God elected Israel corporately to reveal himself to and through, but the individual Jew was still responsible for his part of the covenant in order to be considered in covenant with God. God elected certain individuals from Israel to carry the message of good news to the rest of the world. God elected the Gentiles to be grafted in and thus receive this divine revelation, by which whosoever (individually) might believe and be saved.

I don't think I can make it any more clear, but feel free to ask questions if this doesn't answer all your questions.