O
OCC
Guest
Diane you go girl. Preach it sister...um wait...some may take offense to a woman preaching. You go girl!
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Do Calvinists act like Arminians?
- Thread starter David Ekstrom
- Start date
No, not at all. It is saying exactly what it says ... that election ensures hte means as well as the end.
Could you have made the other choice? If not, then how are you free? If so, then God's knowledge as wrong? There are only two options: If God knew what you would chooose, then you had no true free will, as Arminians like to define it. If you could hvae made the other choice, then God really didn't know, and thus is not omniscient. Nobody on your side has ever touched this argument. They run from it like it's the plague
When God says he chose to you salvation, what other proof do you need? The evidence is plentiful.NNE has been able to show me IN THE BIBLE where Calvinism is true.
Nor should it. I too will reject any mere man's opinions. But we are talking about God's word.
God didn't send billions to hell because he felt like it. That is a total caricature of Calvinism. God sends people to hell because they are sinners. They did not want to repent.
The question is whether the Bible is correct. If it is, the Calvinism is the only option for people who truly believe it in full. It is not that Calvinism "cannot" be proven. But at some point you have to decide what the authority about theology really is. Is it man's mind? Or is it the word of God? If it is the word of God, then you have to start wrestling with these key passages that people keep ignoring.
What is the relevance of this?
O
OCC
Guest
"They did not want to repent." Larry...God didn't want them to, according to Calvinism.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Let's try to remain civil and pray for each other, according to God's instrutions. Neither Jew nor Gentile but co workers for Christ.
John Darby said: Grace rises above all these thoughts - all these feelings of the heart. It teaches us to think of all men with love. We belong to a Saviour-God, who acts in the gospel towards all men with love.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I may have been the source.
(BTW - are you related to the Stroms of Norway?)
Can you show that Calvinists do not use Arminian methods to evangelize?
"Whom HE FOREKNEW HE PREDESTINED to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son" Rom 8.
What "other kind" of predestination were you thinking of?
And since we are not informed about the WAY God will reach Jones - we have no more reason to think He will do it using ARMINIAN means than Calvinist ones!
This means we are just as well advised to give our Calvinist sermon and sit down - saying "HEar me - NOTHING I say here today and NOTHING you choose here today will make ANY CHANGE AT ALL in what God has decided to do or who He chooses to ELECT. But maybe - just maybe today is the day God just so happened to pick for someone here to come forward. Let us sit and be very very watchful and see if someone is in that group. Silence everyone! Lets watch what God may have chosed to do today!"
Funny how they never choose that direct Calvinist approach!
By Contrast - SEE Paul arguing that he hopes that Jealousy MIGHT be used to persuade SOME of the Jews to be saved in Romans 11 !!
In 2Cor 5 "WE BEG YOU on behald of Christ BE RECONCILED to GOD"!!
The Arminian methods are frequent and obvious.
In Christ,
Bob
D
dianetavegia
Guest
That may be one of the silliest statements you have made! God is all knowing and quite capable of knowing if a person is going to chose to refuse the plan of salvation or chose the free gift of salvation.
God knew Jonah would turn, repent and go to Ninevah. God knew the people in Ninevah would turn back to HIM. Why bother with Jonah or Ninevah at all if those who were chosen didn't need to make a choice??
My denial of acceptance of your theology is based on the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit in MY life when I study scripture. No amount of bullying by any Calvinst will change what is shown to me by the Holy Spirit. I, in fact, see that Calvinists seem to all disagree on what Calvinists believe.
I deserve hell. There but by the sacrificial blood of Christ Jesus, go I. IMHO, To purport that I was chosen BEFORE the blood sacrifice empties the cross of its power!
No, not really. Man doesn't repent because he doesn't want to. As the Bible says, All who are willing to come will have eternally life. Man's problem is that he is not willing. God isn't desiring the death of hte wicked.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Man doesn't repent because HE DOESN'T WANT TO? All who are WILLING? Man is NOT WILLING?
That's Free Will! That's not a Calvinist position!
That may be one of the silliest statements you have made! God is all knowing and quite capable of knowing if a person is going to chose to refuse the plan of salvation or chose the free gift of salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]How is it silly? You probably didn't even think about it. Let's try it again.
Is God's knowledge perfect? I think we would agree that Yes, it is. Therefore, whatever God knows is certainly going to come to pass. There is no chance that it won't come to pass.
Is God's perfect knowledge eternal? Yes, otherwise God would have been changing, growing in his knowledge. This is in fact, the position of the open theists, and the process theologians.
Since God's eternal perfect knowledge knew that Diane would choose to be saved before hte foundation of the world, was there any chance that Diane could exercise her "free will" to choose differently? The answer, obviously, is no. YOu had no chance to change your mind. YOu could argue that if you were going to change your mind then God knew that too. Which I would agree, and point out that the conquent of that is that there is no chance that you wouldn't change your mind.
God's eternal knowledge renders all choices certain, and removes any "free will" as your side tries to define it. You can't do anything but what God knows you will do.
Let's take it a step further. God knows that "Joe" will reject him. God knows that Joe will then spend eternity in hell. God, knowing that Joe will do that, allows him to come into this world anyway. How is that loving?
You have unwittingly worked yourself into a quandary from which there is no real escape.
They did need to make a choice. Why would you say they didn't?
What if the Spirit hans't shown you that? What if I claim that that Spirit showed me something different. Did the same Spirit show us different things that contradict? Of course not. How do we adjudicate in these matters? 1) Realize that your perception of the Spirit's leading is not infallible. 2) Realize that the Spirit will never lead contrary to the Word. 3) Study the word.
Not really. We agree on the major points, and disagree on some other points. Arminians such as yourself do the same thing. You don't agree with everything Bob Ryan or Wes says, I imagine. This is really irrelevant unless you want to quit talking theology.
I agree ... and include myself in that category.
With due respect, this is a large part of the problem. We have people making theological decisions based on their own opinion, rather than on God's word. Calvinists do it to at times.
Based on what? I can't help but notice you didn't offer any scriptural support for this. If God didn't choose people to be saved, then Christ would have died needlessly because no one would have been saved.
I can't help but notice as well that you didn't tell us what God meant when he said that he "chose you to salvation." Is there a reason you skipped over that?
Yet more confirmation of my long standing point that many of you disagree when you don't even know what we believe.
Man doesn't repent because he doesn't want to. That is the Calvinist position. All who are willing can come. God does not turn anyone away who wants to be saved.
You have been listening to the wrong people. You guys think I am crazy when I say you are uninformed about Calvinism. And then you repeatedly show me to be correct in that assertion.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Start with the 'you Arminians' again and I'll call you a Calvinite.
Honestly Larry. You're the one talking in circles and not getting anywhere.
Honestly Larry. You're the one talking in circles and not getting anywhere.
Actually, Diane, you're the one who just said
I will say something very different, and that is:
I AM COMPLETELY READY AND WILLING TO GIVE UP MY CALVINISM AND RENOUNCE IT AS HERESY, IN PART OR IN WHOLE-------IF I CAN BE SHOWN FROM SCRIPTURE THAT IT IS WRONG
. That's a pretty small circle that you've put yourself in.
I will say something very different, and that is:
I AM COMPLETELY READY AND WILLING TO GIVE UP MY CALVINISM AND RENOUNCE IT AS HERESY, IN PART OR IN WHOLE-------IF I CAN BE SHOWN FROM SCRIPTURE THAT IT IS WRONG
What's a Calvinite? I have never heard of that. "You arminians" is a reference to people like yourself who deny unconditional election. THat is the key distinction between Calvinism and Arminian. Since you deny unconditional election, you are an arminian. There is nothing wrong with label, necessarily. It it just short hand for what you believe.
Honestly?? You know better Diane. YOu know as well as I do that you have no answer for the foreknowledge argument. There isn't one unless you are an open theist. That is, in part, why open theism developed. You should be able to recognize the box you have put yourself in. I am not talking in circles at all. I have been very clear about what I am saying I think. Are you having trouble understanding the point? Or do you just not have an answer? (I am not trying to be demeaning to you, please understand. If you don't understand the point, let me know. I will try again to explain it.)
Let's just try a simple question:
If God's knows before you are ever born that you will do something, are you free to do something else? Or is your freedom limited by God's knowledge?
And I notice you still won't answer Scripture. Why not tell us what you think God meant when he said he "chose you to salvation"? Is that too hard of a question?
As for me, I will gladly give up Calvinism the moment I can be shown from Scripture that God said something else.
Well Diane,
At least I tried.
I offered you a free book written by a Southern Baptist Professor, a Book that was published by Lifeway and promoted as the Annual Doctrinal Study Book for the whole SBC Convention and it is still being sold at Lifeway.
Now I ask you a question - Why would Lifeway continue to sell and promote the book if Calvinism is Wrong?
At least I tried.
I offered you a free book written by a Southern Baptist Professor, a Book that was published by Lifeway and promoted as the Annual Doctrinal Study Book for the whole SBC Convention and it is still being sold at Lifeway.
Now I ask you a question - Why would Lifeway continue to sell and promote the book if Calvinism is Wrong?
O
OCC
Guest
No, not really. Man doesn't repent because he doesn't want to. As the Bible says, All who are willing to come will have eternally life. Man's problem is that he is not willing. God isn't desiring the death of hte wicked. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry...if we are chosen before the foundation of the world, no man can resist God's will, etc. then it follows that God Himself does not want them to repent. That's consistent with Calvinism. Man is not willing to repent because God is not willing that the non-elect repent. That's Calvinism.
and you are the first Calvinist I've heard say that "God is not desiring the death of the wicked". I was shocked when I read that.
There is no "if" about it. This is the clear declaration of God in Scripture (Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13). This is a place where you just need to accept what God said, even if it is not your particular favorite conclusion.
Bad logic, and classic example of how your side is driven by logic rather than Scripture. You jumped from point A to point B to point C without so much as a thought there is something you can't comprehend. I am willing to say that Scripture says A and B, and resist the temptation to draw a conclusion that contradicts the other things that Scripture says about God. You insist on inserting something else into the question as a step of logic to satisfy your own thinking.
Why not affirm tht God chose us to salvation before the foundation of the world, that no one can resist God's will, and that God does not desire the death of the wicked? All are clearly taught in Scripture. Why deny the first?
This doesn't help you anyway because the only escape from this "conundrum" is open theism. But this questions of yours was asked 2000 years ago at least, and Paul under the inspiration of hte Spirit addressed it in a way that is a sufficient answer for me. Who am I to add to what God said about this "problem" in Romans 9?
Your second statement shows that you need to read more about what Calvinism actually believes. And your second statement leads us to question how well based your first statement is. Simply put, both of these statements show that you are uninformed about what Calvinism teaches. Yet you, for some reason, have drawn a firm conclusion about it anyway. Why? Why would you object so strongly to something when you don't even know what it teaches? That doesn't make sense to me.
The truth is that man is not willing to repent, and God honors that free will and lets him go. Why would you object to that? Isn't that what you want?
David Ekstrom
New Member
Pastor Larry is right when he says that
God's foreknowledge precludes a common definition of free will, namely, that you are free if and only if you could have chosen otherwise. No, the very fact that the outcome is infallibly known makes the outcome infallibly certain. Hence, while you exercised free will in making the choice, you didn't have the freedom to make a different choice. In other words, free will does not mean that you could always do otherwise. It must mean something else. It must mean that you are free if you get to choose what you want without external coercion.
That doesn't mean that man has no free will at all. That doesn't mean that God is pleased with the damnation of sinners. That doesn't mean that God is not desirous that every lost person be saved.
It gets more complicated. Have you ever thought about how complex the issue of free will is? What exactly are you free to do? Say you have a choice between chocolate cake and eating raw liver. You are free to choose chocolate cake. But are you free to want to choose chocolate cake? In other words, you choose on the basis of your desires but you do not choose to have your desires.
God's foreknowledge precludes a common definition of free will, namely, that you are free if and only if you could have chosen otherwise. No, the very fact that the outcome is infallibly known makes the outcome infallibly certain. Hence, while you exercised free will in making the choice, you didn't have the freedom to make a different choice. In other words, free will does not mean that you could always do otherwise. It must mean something else. It must mean that you are free if you get to choose what you want without external coercion.
That doesn't mean that man has no free will at all. That doesn't mean that God is pleased with the damnation of sinners. That doesn't mean that God is not desirous that every lost person be saved.
It gets more complicated. Have you ever thought about how complex the issue of free will is? What exactly are you free to do? Say you have a choice between chocolate cake and eating raw liver. You are free to choose chocolate cake. But are you free to want to choose chocolate cake? In other words, you choose on the basis of your desires but you do not choose to have your desires.
David Ekstrom
New Member
Hey, Bob.
"Strom" is a very common Swedish name. It means river or water or something. "Ekstrom" means tree by the water, or something like that. (At least I've been told. Don't know any Swedish.) It, too, is a very common Swedish name. If that's true, then Ps. 1 should be my life verse.
Whether it is or not, I thank God for all of you who are debating the meaning of God's word to try to understand its implications. You are like a tree planted by the water. Yes, there are Arminian and Calvinistic trees!
My gripe comes in when people don't base their arguments on Scripture, not with brethren who understand Scripture differently.
"Strom" is a very common Swedish name. It means river or water or something. "Ekstrom" means tree by the water, or something like that. (At least I've been told. Don't know any Swedish.) It, too, is a very common Swedish name. If that's true, then Ps. 1 should be my life verse.
Whether it is or not, I thank God for all of you who are debating the meaning of God's word to try to understand its implications. You are like a tree planted by the water. Yes, there are Arminian and Calvinistic trees!
My gripe comes in when people don't base their arguments on Scripture, not with brethren who understand Scripture differently.
To "choose" what you desire is the essence of free will. No Calvinist would EVER argue that. This is the problem with those who don't take time to properly understand the debate. Calvinist believe in man's FREE WILL. He will ALWAYS choose what he DESIRES.
The problem with some is that they have a humanistic philosophical understanding of man and not a true Biblical understanding of man. They believe that there is good in man thus he can choose good. Unfortunately, this is not Biblically correct. Man is free to choose but he will ALWAYS choose evil. He is at enmity with God and will always choose against Him.
The problem with some is that they have a humanistic philosophical understanding of man and not a true Biblical understanding of man. They believe that there is good in man thus he can choose good. Unfortunately, this is not Biblically correct. Man is free to choose but he will ALWAYS choose evil. He is at enmity with God and will always choose against Him.
David Ekstrom
New Member
I Cor 1 says that the Gospel is foolishness to the natural man. He cannot understand it.
Rom 8 tells us that the flesh is opposed to God. So that even if the natural man did somehow understand the Gospel, he would be opposed to it. The more light given to the natural man, the greater the animosity he will feel. This is what Pharoah's case shows us. The Pharisees SAW Lazarus rise from the dead. What was their response? Kill him and Jesus, too.
II Cor tells us that Satan, not taking anything for granted, blinds the minds of unbelievers. So if they did understand it, and then somehow overcame their natural animosity to it, Satan would intervene to make sure they didn't want it.
Augustine, realizing this, explained that without "prevenient grace," the lost could never be saved. God would have to send His grace for anyone to believe.
Good Arminians, like Wesley, agree to this. (Otherwise, you end up with semi-Pelagianism.) They argue, however, that prevenient grace is part of common grace. While I disagree, I can respect that opinion. I would call on my Arminian brothers to beware of Pelagianism. Man is totally unable on his own to believe and repent.
Rom 8 tells us that the flesh is opposed to God. So that even if the natural man did somehow understand the Gospel, he would be opposed to it. The more light given to the natural man, the greater the animosity he will feel. This is what Pharoah's case shows us. The Pharisees SAW Lazarus rise from the dead. What was their response? Kill him and Jesus, too.
II Cor tells us that Satan, not taking anything for granted, blinds the minds of unbelievers. So if they did understand it, and then somehow overcame their natural animosity to it, Satan would intervene to make sure they didn't want it.
Augustine, realizing this, explained that without "prevenient grace," the lost could never be saved. God would have to send His grace for anyone to believe.
Good Arminians, like Wesley, agree to this. (Otherwise, you end up with semi-Pelagianism.) They argue, however, that prevenient grace is part of common grace. While I disagree, I can respect that opinion. I would call on my Arminian brothers to beware of Pelagianism. Man is totally unable on his own to believe and repent.