Do Calvinists act like Arminians?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by David Ekstrom:
Hey, Bob.
"Strom" is a very common Swedish name. It means river or water or something. "Ekstrom" means tree by the water, or something like that. (At least I've been told. Don't know any Swedish.) It, too, is a very common Swedish name. If that's true, then Ps. 1 should be my life verse.
Whether it is or not,

Good to hear. There are two Stroms - those with the double dot above the "o" and those with the small u above the "o".

The first example is Norwegian the second is Swedish. I was in Oslo a few years ago - going through some ancient grave yards and saw both examples on the tombstones.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

He will ALWAYS choose what he DESIRES.

What did Lucifer "desire"? What did Gabriel "Desire?" - what did Adam "Desire"? What did saul "desire" on the road to Damascus?

Were they all simply "choosing what they desire" -- "choosing according to their corrupt nature"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[David Ekstrom]

Bob, in the case of the first sin of Lucifer and Adam, before they had a corrupt nature, you raise a good point.
But in the case of Saul on the Damascus road, Saul's choice of turning to the Lord was enabled by the Holy Spirit. I guess I fall short of wanting to say Irrestistible Grace but that's the Calvinist's line. The point that Calvinists make is that, without special grace, the lost will never choose Christ.

 

[OCC]

How were people saved before Christ then? They must have had it twice as hard as us.

 

[Hardsheller]

Same old Way KJ, The Grace of God.

 

[OCC]

True, but how would they choose Christ. They hadn't heard of him and the Holy Spirit didn't regenerate men back then the way He does now (the Calvinist way).

The Holy Spirit didn't even indwell believers.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by David Ekstrom:
Bob, in the case of the first sin of Lucifer and Adam, before they had a corrupt nature, you raise a good point.
But in the case of Saul on the Damascus road, Saul's choice of turning to the Lord was enabled by the Holy Spirit.

WE agree then (to some extent) in BOTH cases.

THe Holy Spirit "CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin" John 16.

The Holy Spirit "DRAWS ALL MANKIND to God" John 12:32.

The Holy Spirit ENABLES the choice that depravity DISABLES!

As Christ stands on the OUTSIDE knocking -- the Holy Spirit ENABLES hearing and ENABLES the choice to OPEN the door AFTER WHICH the lost sinner is finally IN FELLOWSHIP with Christ.

Lucifer and Adam chose OUTSIDE of their SINLESS nature to embrace rebellion - just as Saul choice OUTSIDE of his sinFUL nature to accept life.

God is the God of "free will" and it cost HIM plenty - starting with Lucifer it cost 1/3 of the Angels. Starting with Adam it cost him the loss of humanity and the death of His Son to redeem us.

IF God was EVER going to ABOLISH that free will system He "failed" to do it when it would have been EASY - simply ZAP the brain of Lucifer AS HE IS THINKING about rebellion!

IF God were to go that direction - oh how much suffering it would save Christ, mankind, Lucifer, 1/3 of the Angels.

But God valued FREE WILL above it ALL! ABove EVEN His own comfort!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

Interesting that the statement you made about the Holy Spirit universally enabling the choice which depravity disabled is not followed by a scripture reference.

 

[David Ekstrom]

Bob, I appreciate the fact that you allow that the Holy Spirit must enable sinners to believe. Though I disagree that that is part of common grace, it is a strain of Arminianism with which I really have no complaint.
Your view takes Scripture about the Fall seriously and magnifies God's grace in saving the lost.
Can I ask, though, where in Scripture do we have any justification for your claim that God values free will so much?
I am a little concerned about more extreme views of Arminianism that approach Pelagianism. I think that Wes holds such a view. Human nature is greatly damaged by the Fall. The Bible describes the lost as dead (Eph 2), enemies of God (Rom 8) and unable to understand the Gospel (I Cor 1-2).

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

Interesting that the statement you made about the Holy Spirit universally enabling the choice which depravity disabled is not followed by a scripture reference.

God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32. That DRAWING of God (that we also see in John 6) is admitted by Calvinists THEMSELVES to enable the choice that TD disables.

OR did you not see that?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by David Ekstrom:
Can I ask, though, where in Scripture do we have any justification for your claim that God values free will so much?

Are you saying - where in scripture do we see God with a CHOICE to either ALLOW Lucifer to THINK thoughts of rebellion or to STOP them BEFORE they are thought (or tweak them WHILE they are thought)??

I view God as being all-knowing and all-powerful.

So it follows from reason - if you view him as I do.

When that FALL of Lucifer then draws 1/3 of the Angels - we have ANOTHER "consequence" of ALLOWING that thought for Lucifer.

When He ALLOWS Adam to Fall AFTER Eve fell - we have the LOSS of mankind - a "consequence" of ALLOWING those THOUGHTS.

Did you have an alternative?

The fact that fallen man is depraved is countered by the fact that God "DRAWS ALL MANKIND" and even in Calvinism that DRAWING (as seen in John 6 and 12) is admitted to ENABLE action.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In any case - back to the subject. I am glad that Calvinists ignore the doctrines of Calvinism and choose to "evangelize" in the "effective" form of the Arminian model.

"WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5!

How wonderful that Calvinists can put away their Calvinism and go out and make these Arminian appeals!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why would you think that was an arminian appeal? Paul, who very clearly taught the doctrines that are now known as Calvinism, was the one who made that statement. Paul rejected what you believe as we can tell from his own writings. To beg people to be reconciled to God is Calvinism.

 

[Kiffen]

Like Pastor Larry, I am amazed that begging people to trust Christ is viewed as Arminian.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Kiffen:
Like Pastor Larry, I am amazed that begging people to trust Christ is viewed as Arminian.

Well lets just take "the obvious".

In Calvinism GOD FIRST REGENERATES the LOST -- CAUSING Them to be BORN AGAIN forgiven SAINTS - with a NEW NATURE (a New Creation 2Cor5) that is IN HARMONY with God!!

THEN that person hears the Gospel and "naturally" accepts it.

The idea of BEGGING THEM (the lost) TO CHOOSE (life and accept Christ) is purely an ARMINIAN concept.

As Paul said "IF SOMEHOW I might SAVE SOME of them!!".

The Arminian model is very DISTINCT as compared to Calvinist doctrine!!

Impossible to fuse them together! So Calvinists simply IGNORE Calvinism while the PRACTICE Arminian methods of Evangelism!

OF course Calvinist COULD use CALVINISM instead!! They could get up and say

"NOTHING you CHOOSE today and nothing I SAY today will change what God has ordained in the LEAST. He loves ONLY THE FEW of MATT 7 and cares nothing about the MANY OF MATT 7.

So are you lucky? Are you really among the FEW or the MANY? If God does not CAUSE you to be born again PRIOR to your coming forward then coming forward and accepting Christ will do you no good at all! AND should it turn out that YOU are among the FEW - nothing about YOU says that God actually loves anybody else in your family. They could get selected to be in the FEW or they may simply be among the MANY that He cares nothing about!

Let us now sit quietly and WATCH to see WHO God will CHANGE today as they sit in their seats.

shhh! Quiet everyone! Maybe God has selected today to change someone. And maybe just maybe some of the FEW just so happen to be in this auditorium today. And maybe just maybe today is the day God will change those FEW"

Yep! Calvinism certainly "Could" be preached in evangelism -- but thank God that even Calvinists see clearly that it would not work at all in evangelism.

In fact we have even seen Calvinists ON THIS board "admit" That "We do not tell them about calvinism until AFTER they accept salvation".

How "instructive"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
...GOD FIRST REGENERATES the LOST -- CAUSING Them to be BORN AGAIN forgiven SAINTS - with a NEW NATURE (a New Creation 2Cor5) that is IN HARMONY with God!!

I agree. It is good to see you coming around.

Calvinists simply IGNORE ... Arminian methods of Evangelism!

That is another good point. All of those "repeat after me" (whether you understand it or not) prayers and the "every head bowed, every eye closed" psychological manipulation never really saved anyone anyway.

Maybe there is hope for you yet.

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

The only reason we Calvinists don't preach "Calvinism" as you define it is because your definition is a FARCE.

If you could have refused Christ when you accepted him why didn't you?

And the truth is that at the moment you said yes to Jesus you couldn't have said no - you wouldn't have said no - and in fact you didn't say no.

The difference between us is that I say God was there prompting the yes and you say he came in applauding the yes.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

The only reason we Calvinists don't preach "Calvinism" as you define it is because your definition is a FARCE.

If you could have refused Christ when you accepted him why didn't you?

And the truth is that at the moment you said yes to Jesus you couldn't have said no - you wouldn't have said no - and in fact you didn't say no.

The difference between us is that I say God was there prompting the yes and you say he came in applauding the yes.

That's what choosing is hardsheller, One evaluates the options, and chooses the one that holds the greater promise. Man is foolish to reject the Christ. Not because man says so, but because the eternal word of God says so. "I have placed before you life and death, choose life!" and "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"! And yes there are other similar thoughts through out the scriptures.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Monergist:

But what really becomes the issue is when calvinists do not rely on manipulative altar calls, watering down the gospel to make it attracive, quick and easy repeat a sinners prayer and sign this card and you're "forever saved and don't you ever doubt it and if you go back into the world next month and have five divorces and never support your kids live your life pretty much as a drunk, the preacher will still tell everybody at your funeral that you are in heaven because on such and such day you gave your heart to the Lord."

So the real isssue isn't evangelism, the real issue is a cheap and shoddy version of evangelism which is not evangelism at all, just like rap music is not music at all. Yet the peddlers of this cheap and shoddy stuff, when we Calvinists do not partake, charge us with being against evangelism. But its our love for true evangelism that causes us to reject the imitation.

I wonder does you church give an alter call or do they just say there are those out there who do not realize they are the elect yet lets see some hands to see if any have been changed today.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Kiffen:
The greatest Revival this country ever had (The Great Awakening) was a Calvinist revival. Calvinists from the very beginning were the leaders in Evangelism and Missions.

I think much of the confusion for modern Arminians is their lack of knowledge of Calvinism.

Well lets look at it today, don't know but your orignal statement. But I could show you thousands of churches with people being saved to the few calvinistic churchs that are not growing at all or very little.