Do Calvinists act like Arminians?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:

The only reason we Calvinists don't preach "Calvinism" as you define it is because your definition is a FARCE.

Calvinists love to gloss over "details" when denying Calvinism - the very same "details" they insist on when confessing it!

The quote above is perfect - and very much in line with the Calvinist future scenario "denied as glossed over" but then "Affirmed in the details"!!

That is what I call the Calvinist "shell game".

I gave SPECIFICS in my charge that Calvinists shrink from actually PROCLAIMING the Calvinism in evangelistic meetings that we see them DEFENDING on these boards!

What "specifics" does hardsheller give?? nothing at all.

Why so shy Hardsheller?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

Hopefully it won't be long until you finally realize that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are like a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. You have many words but no concept of the reality. It is sad that after all this time you have not stopped long enough to realize that you aren't telling the truth. You distort the gospel of Christ, you distort the teaching of Calvinism, and then smugly pretend like you know what you are talking about. For all your words, you make very little contribution to the conversation.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kiffen:
The greatest Revival this country ever had (The Great Awakening) was a Calvinist revival. Calvinists from the very beginning were the leaders in Evangelism and Missions.

I think much of the confusion for modern Arminians is their lack of knowledge of Calvinism.

Well lets look at it today, don't know but your orignal statement. But I could show you thousands of churches with people being saved to the few calvinistic churchs that are not growing at all or very little. </font>[/QUOTE]For every Calvinistic Church you can point out that is not growing I can show you two "Arminian" Southern Baptist Churches.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:

The only reason we Calvinists don't preach "Calvinism" as you define it is because your definition is a FARCE.

Calvinists love to gloss over "details" when denying Calvinism - the very same "details" they insist on when confessing it!

The quote above is perfect - and very much in line with the Calvinist future scenario "denied as glossed over" but then "Affirmed in the details"!!

That is what I call the Calvinist "shell game".

I gave SPECIFICS in my charge that Calvinists shrink from actually PROCLAIMING the Calvinism in evangelistic meetings that we see them DEFENDING on these boards!

What "specifics" does hardsheller give?? nothing at all.

Why so shy Hardsheller?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Because I preach the Bible, not Calvinism as you define it.

Here's the outline of the Sermon you might hear at my church.

1. All men have sinned and are Separated from God.
2. Jesus Christ is the only Provision God has made for Salvation.
3. Is the Christ who was Crucified on Calvary your Savior? If Not Why Not?
4. You might ask - How then can I be Saved?
5. In the words of the Apostle Paul from Acts 16, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved.

Any more questions?

That's Biblical and does not contradict the Biblical Doctrine of Election in any way.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Because I preach the Bible, not Calvinism as you define it.

Here's the outline of the Sermon you might hear at my church.

1. All men have sinned and are Separated from God.
2. Jesus Christ is the only Provision God has made for Salvation.
3. Is the Christ who was Crucified on Calvary your Savior? If Not Why Not?
4. You might ask - How then can I be Saved?
5. In the words of the Apostle Paul from Acts 16, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved.

Any more questions?

That's Biblical and does not contradict the Biblical Doctrine of Election in any way.

Amen, amen, amen.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Nothing like the Calvinistic gospel is there Hardsheller. It is simple, too simple for some however.

 

[dianetavegia]

However, fellas, you both will say that God has prechosen those who will respond to said sermon.

 

[Hardsheller]

Diane we only say what the Bible says.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Diane we only say what the Bible says.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Those God foreknew would accept the free gift of salvation through the blood sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

Jonah 2:8 says that "those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

Forfeit: To surrender, be deprived of, or give up the right to on account of a crime, an offense, an error, or a breach of contract.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Calvinists love to gloss over "details" when denying Calvinism - the very same "details" they insist on when confessing it!

The quote above is perfect - and very much in line with the Calvinist future scenario "denied as glossed over" but then "Affirmed in the details"!!

That is what I call the Calvinist "shell game".

I gave SPECIFICS in my charge that Calvinists shrink from actually PROCLAIMING the Calvinism in evangelistic meetings that we see them DEFENDING on these boards!

What "specifics" does hardsheller give?? nothing at all.

Why so shy Hardsheller?

Originally posted by Hardsheller:

Because I preach the Bible, not Calvinism as you define it.

Here's the outline of the Sermon you might hear at my church.

1. All men have sinned and are Separated from God.
2. Jesus Christ is the only Provision God has made for Salvation.
3. Is the Christ who was Crucified on Calvary your Savior? If Not Why Not?
4. You might ask - How then can I be Saved?
5. In the words of the Apostle Paul from Acts 16, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved.

Any more questions?

A. You are right - those points listed above ARE NOT the distinctives of Calvinism being DEBATED on this forum at all!!

B. Pointing to the softer side of Calvinism that morphs most readily into an Arminian Gospel model INSTEAD of the "God is the author of sin" type Calvinism and the "John Edwards - God does not CARE for the finally lost" Calvinism that has ALREADY BEEN confessed to on this board -- is the "shell gaming" of Calvinists.

C. The "gloss over" that is done when Calvinism is "denied" by Calvinists - will always ignore the DETAILS Calvinists have fallen on the swords for in these debates. Your LIST is a perfect example of where you HAVE NOT drawn the line between Calvinism and Arminianism so far.

So in fact I have to agree with the opening point you make above - THAT LIST you gave is the Bible - NOT CALVINISM's distinctive doctrines!

Shell gaming anyone?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Calvinist Shell game --

Here is what the way they "Want" Calvinism to be thought of --

1. All men have sinned and are Separated from God.
2. Jesus Christ is the only Provision God has made for Salvation.
3. Is the Christ who was Crucified on Calvary your Savior? If Not Why Not?
4. You might ask - How then can I be Saved?
5. In the words of the Apostle Paul from Acts 16, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved.

Nothing in there about limited atonement, arbitrary selection (unconditional election) or God not caring about the MANY of Matt 7.

How "convenient".

So then here is the "Scenario" with the "inconvenient" confessions of Calvinists here - applied to it by contrast to that much more acceptable list posted at the top.

The inner quotes contain “The scenario”. Everything else is my commentary. (Of course the entire thing is my own test scenario for Calvinism)

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor Larry then zeroes in on the point that we should look at the saved and the grace shown them and not concern ourselves with care/love/feelings for the lost as if some bad thing has been arbitrarily done – just focus on the “good” in a case where you have the luxury of ignoring the lost suffering in hell.

Pastor Larry

Christ was Arminian? (Page 6) posted April 16, 2003 10:55 AM
You said How can Calvinists speak of Doctrines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?. The biblical response is "Yes, this is something to shout about since the angels in heaven shout over even one." The "relative few" (in your words) are certainly more than one and bring great joy, and great shouting in heaven.

I press the point of “Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion” with John after seeing the post above – and he responds.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1463/4.html#000045

quote: Bob said
________________________________________
--Are you talking about God or Satan?
________________________________________
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
John responds –
Then why does God still blame us Bob? Satan can do nothing he is under the Despot as we all are. God is Sovereign.

quote: Bob said
________________________________________
-- I thought you had agreed that God is not the author/designer/master/originator/maker of sin?
________________________________________

John Responds –
Not me. God is the Author of sin. God is Sovereign. You made an assumption and you are wrong.

quote: Bob said
________________________________________
-- I think I will add your post to the Calvinist future scenario right after "SURE I could have -- IF I had CARED to"
________________________________________

John said -- I don't know what you mean but have another 'God is Sovereign' just in case. It is 'God willing' that should trip off your tongue not 'As I will'. You sound as if you are sovereign or something.

</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist scenario “confirmed”.

 

[Timtoolman]

Wow great stuff Bob. It does boil down to a selfish love. An elitst attitude even.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

You should be ashamed. First, John has admitted he is not a typical Calvinist with his position about God and sin. Secondly, your nonsensical future scenario has been roundly refuted. You know better. You konw you are wrong. YOu know you are not telling the truth. That is shameful for you to keep going. You are misrepresenting God with your nonsense. You are violating the third command by using God's name in vain, saying something that he would not say.

Such repeated dishonestly on your part makes us wonder about your integrity. For you to continue to repeat something that has been refuted is unconscionable. No person of integrity would continue to do that. We have repsonded to your scenario in detail from Scripture. You have been exposed to teh truth of God's word. You know better and reject it anyway.

It is one thing to disagree with CAlvinism. That is fine. But for you to make hte kind of comments you are making about what we believe is unacceptable, ethically and theologically.

 

[David Ekstrom]

It's poor argumentation to represent a position by its extreme, as is the case to foolishly and blasphemously say that God is the author of sin and that God doesn't desire the salvation of the lost. It's unfair to label such positions as "Calvinism." There is a broad spectrum of Calvinism just as there is of Arminianism. Making generalizations and erecting straw men is not a way to dialogue if we are trying to learn from one another. That is why we're on these boards, isn't it? Or are we here to just boast and beat our chests? UGG! Calivinism good! Arminianism bad! (Or vice-versa).
I could say that Arminianism teaches Universalism, Process Theology, and Pelagianism. Bible believing Arminians would object, as right they should, because just because some take a position to a ridiculous extreme doesn't mean everyone does.
Of course Calvinists don't present the meat of the word in an evangelistic service. Do Arminians?Just this morning, as I most often do, I gave an invitation for salvation. Yes, I asked for a raise of hands. If someone is under conviction of being saved, they need to respond NOW. I don't use emotional manipulation but I offer an opportunity for people to respond to Christ. And yes, I am a Calvinist. Presenting the Gospel and urging the lost to respond is biblical. It is neither Calvinist nor Arminian. By what right do Arminians claim to have a corner on the evangelism market? Jonathan Edwards, who you ridicule, was an ardent preacher of the Gospel who was used in the conversion of thousands. If you think he did not care about the conversion of the lost, you only show your lack of information. He was thrown out of his church because he preached that the young people there did not give evidence of their conversion. George Whitfield, his contemporary, was asked why he so constantly preached, "You must be born again." "Because," he replied, "you must be born again." He was used to bring thousands into the kingdom.

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob Ryan,

I do preach Limited Atonement because Limited Atonement is the only kind of atonement there is.

Even Arminians know beyond a shadow of doubt that all men will not be saved, therefore the Atonement is limited in its effect. Of that there can be no dispute.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob Ryan,

I do preach Limited Atonement because Limited Atonement is the only kind of atonement there is.

Even Arminians know beyond a shadow of doubt that all men will not be saved, therefore the Atonement is limited in its effect. Of that there can be no dispute.

If you preach limited atonement then you know how atonement is limited and why? Please tell me exactly what you believe the limitations to be. you should also be able to tell me who is not covered by the Christ's universal atonement.

 

[Hardsheller]

Limited Atonement - The Atonement of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all but only effective for the elect.

1. Calvinist Perspective - Not all are elect therefore there will be those who are eternally lost. This limits the effect of the atonement to the elect.

2. Arminian Perspective - The Atonement is a general atonement or universal atonement but not all will hear and not all that hear will believe. This limits the effect of the atonement to the saved.

Practical Application - since Arminians believe that the more who hear the Gospel the more will be saved then it behooves all Arminians to be aggressively evangelistic and Mission oriented. Sadly this is not the case.

The interesting point of all this is the great missionary movement of the 1700's and 1800's was instigated by Calvinists.

 

[Hardsheller]

I am off to Boys Camp for a week. I will be preaching the whole Gospel - the Biblical Gospel.

1. All men have sinned and are Separated from God.
2. Jesus Christ is the only Provision God has made for Salvation.
3. Is the Christ who was Crucified on Calvary your Savior? If Not Why Not?
4. You might ask - How then can I be Saved?
5. In the words of the Apostle Paul from Acts 16, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved.

By the way - Some of those boys who are the elect will "accept Christ" this week. Some of the boys who aren't will also "accept Christ" this week. It happens every summer.

See you next week.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob Ryan,
I do preach Limited Atonement because Limited Atonement is the only kind of atonement there is.

So then - going back to that supposed Evangelistic meeting where limited atonement is preached ---

(one more time -- all together now)


"So God does not really even CARE for the MANY of Matt 7 -- just the FEW. We are hoping that there are some here today who might be among the FEW that God actually CARES for and actually ATONED for. OF course nothing IS SAY and nothing YOU CHOOSE today will make any difference at all in who God cares for, who He atones for and what He has decided will happen this very day."

Etc.

Etc.

You know - the "details" that you gloss over while denying them -- yet highlight while confessing them in other posts that don't actually deal with how they are given in evangelism.

In Christ,

Bob