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Do Christians Owe Unlimited Submission To Civil Government

Do Christians Owe Unlimited Submission To Civil Government

  • Total voters
    21
G

GrannyGumbo

<img src ="/Granny.gif">
And one more...

"In the exercise and enjoyment of present blessings we are prone to be oblivious to the history of the past, and it is easy to let slip the great principles by which our privileges were won. The world would be in far worse shape today if, in the years long gone, there had not been men and women willing to die for the purity of simple Biblical truth, especially the business of whether or not a Christian owes unlimited submission to the civil magistrate. The Bible, of course, never teaches that God's people owe unlimited submission to civil magistrates, even though God Himself has established and ordained the ordinance of civil government. Civil magistrates are to obeyed only in-so-far as they command that the people obey the laws of God! All of history proves this precept to be correct, and all American preachers who grovel at the feet of the goddess 'Unlimited Submission' should turn their backs on truth and go back to England, begging the Queen to let them and their little Tory congregations set up a colony somewhere on the English Channel." -Pastor John Lewis, host of the "Black Brigade Broadcast"
 
P

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Civil magistrates are to obeyed only in-so-far as they command that the people obey the laws of God!
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I can't help but notice the lack of Scripture ... and for good reason ... there is none to back this up. Scripture does not command obedience only when government commands to obey God. There is no such teaching. Scripture permits disobedience to government only when it requires disobedience to God.

Christ never commanded his followers to rebel against government. In fact, he rebuked Peter for doing so. He commanded them to be submissive and have a higher mission. Why is that too high a call for 21st century American Christians? Do we really think we are above simple obedience to God's word?
 
G

GrannyGumbo

<img src ="/Granny.gif">
Thanks a bunch, Pennsylvania Jim!
wave.gif
 
B

Bartimaeus

New Member
Pastor Larry, your interpretation of all the verses that deal with the civil magistrate is exactly that....YOUR interpretation. Paul told Timothy to stand by the things he had been taught and to KNOW OF WHOM HE WAS TAUGHT THEM. (certainly my emphasis) Can you please advise us who you received your teaching from on this very subject?
BTW...Have you sung the national anthem lately? Please don't...it would be a farce and a great hoax on the people around you....they would believe that you would stand with Mr Francis Scot Key, (a Baptist preacher who loved his Lord and his country and was against a tyrant King and believed in the cause of the colonist war against England....which you do not!).
His Grace is Still Amazing ----Bart
 
B

Bartimaeus

New Member
Pastor Larry,
Please do not give us the excuse that you can sing it now because of what it has stood for in the recent past (or something like that)for the message of the whole song is still the same as it ever was. I'll give you the second verse if you have any questions:

Oh, thus be it ever when free men shall stand,
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blessed with victory and peace, may the Heav'n rescued land
Praise the pow'r that had made and pre-served us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause, it is just,
and this be our motto, "In God is our trust!"
And the Star Spangled Banner in triump shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

For those of you who preach subjection to tyranny and that you would have been a Tory Preacher in the fight with England better find you another national anthem.
His Grace is Still Amazing ----Bart
 
NaasPreacher (C4K)

NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
Thread after thread - post after post - quote after quote - accusation after accusation...


...but still no Scriptural evidence for the Christian to disobey the State?
 
P

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
Can you please advise us who you received your teaching from on this very subject?
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Christ and Paul. You can tell that by the fact that I have referenced nothing but Scripture. I have not quoted the founders of this country; I have no need to. They are not our authority. I have not quoted famous (or not so famous preachers). I have no need to. They are not the authority. I have quoted nothing but Scripture because that is the authority. Just becuase it runs against your American idealism does not make it wrong.

BTW...Have you sung the national anthem lately? Please don't...it would be a farce and a great hoax on the people around you....they would believe that you would stand with Mr Francis Scot Key, (a Baptist preacher who loved his Lord and his country and was against a tyrant King and believed in the cause of the colonist war against England....which you do not!).
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Very interesting ... Tell me this ... HOw does a man born in 1779 or 1780 stand againt a tyrant king in a war that ended in 1787?? That indicates to me that you just play on emotions rather than the facts. You didn't think through that. In 1814, he was standing in defense of his own country. He was not rebelling against it.

As for signing the national anthem, I have no problem with it at all. In fact, I hate the fact that some sports teams have exchanged the national anthem for God Bless America. But all of that is irrelevant.

My point is this: The Bible is very clear about the Christians relationship to government. It expressly states that we are to be submissive to it, calling it the will of God for your life (1 Peter 2). If you are not submissive to government, you are out of the will of God.

It also teaches by example that we are to be submissive to government. It teaches it positively when Christ submitted to the murderous intent of a pagan government, as did Paul, James, and a host of others. It teaches it negatively by failing to give any command or example where a Christian rebelled against the government, save Peter and John who "must obey God rather than man." But even then, they did not fight or insist on their rights. They merely went about their business.

This is a very simple and clear issue from Scripture. Nationalism and patriotism I share. Disobedience to God and Scripture I do not. We as believers have a higher calling than stooping to the political issues of the day.
 
poncho

poncho

Well-Known Member
I see your point C4K.

This topic is getting worn out. I'm all for giving it a rest.

I've learned much and thank those that have particpated whichever view they hold. This has been a fun learning experience for me.
 
P

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
BTW, Bart, Key was not a Baptist preacher. He was a religious man but was a lawyer according to an article in hte Smithsonian magazine someone gave me last night. He was initially opposed to the war of 1812.

So, not only was he not in favor of the Revolution (since it started before he was born and ended when he was 7), he was not initially in favor of the war of 1812.
 
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