Do messianic jews have to be circumcised?

[xdisciplex]

Yes or no?
If they get circumcised then are they not trying to fulfill the law and Paul said if you try to fulfill it and only break one commandment then you break the whole law?
This would mean that messianic jews also should not even try to fulfill these OT laws but then why do they wear these hats?

And what about christians? There are christians which say that since the law is from God it's good and this means that God also wants us to follow his law because what sense would it make when God creates rules and then all of a sudden following these rules is bad? And because of this they say that christians still have to follow all these rules because God made them and they are good and that those passages where Paul speaks out against this are translated incorrectly and Paul only spoke out against being pedantic but not against following all these rules. This is confusing. But somehow it's really a bit strange, isn't it? I mean the christians today are like: Jesus came and fulfilled it all and because of this we don't have to care about anything anymore and trying to obey these rules is actually bad and God doesn't even want it.

What if this is indeed incorrect and christians got it wrong?

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

I mean the christians today are like: Jesus came and fulfilled it all and because of this we don't have to care about anything anymore and trying to obey these rules is actually bad and God doesn't even want it.

What if this is indeed incorrect and christians got it wrong?

You are partially correct -- Jesus came and fulfilled it all. But these rules are not 'actually bad.'

Jesus did not negate the two commandments upon which the Law was based (Matthew 22:36-40.) I believe this is shown in John 15:4-12,

But I am not comfortable quoting limited scriptures. The New Testament as a whole exudes God's love. Obedience to Christ's commandment in John 13:34 covers it all.

 

[xdisciplex]

I don't know the levitical laws but let's say , just as an example, God forbid in the levitical laws that you eat bread after midnight, then does this mean that christians today can eat bread after midnight and God doesn't care anymore?
This is basically the problem. Why should God first of all create rules and then later on he doesn't care anymore because Jesus fulfilled them and now all of a sudden trying to obey these rules is considered bad and legalistic?
This is basically their argument that God still wants us to follow these rules because they are good.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't know if messianic Jews require circumcision or not. I guess you'd have to ask one, but it's not required under the new covenant. Paul had a lot to say on the subject. What sets us apart as God's people now is not circumcision or diet or levitical law, but our faith in Christ who has fulfilled all the requirements of the law. :wavey:

 

[J. Jump]

My guess would be that they are probably circumcised long before they ever believe in Judism or Christianity. It is a process that is done in the first few days of life, most often.

So I would suspect that it is a moot point. If they weren't circumcised as a child (don't know if that's still a Jewish practice or not), then there would be no requirement for them to do it when they believe as it is not a requirement.

 

[xdisciplex]

But the argument which people like David Stern have is simply that Paul was mistranslated or misinterpreted. David H.Stern writes in his Jewish New Testament about this. He thinks that obeying all these laws is good and not bad.

 

[Amy.G]

But the argument which people like David Stern have is simply that Paul was mistranslated or misinterpreted. David H.Stern writes in his Jewish New Testament about this. He thinks that obeying all these laws is good and not bad.

Reading the NT will clear up everything. It's very plainly discussed. It doesn't matter what this guy says.

 

[xdisciplex]

But then how do we know which laws are still valid and which aren't valid anymore? Who decides this? Who decides that drinking alcohol is bad and that women still need to cover their heads but that you can shop on Sunday? Who decides all these things? Somehow it seems like picking the marshmallows out of the pudding.

 

[Amy.G]

But then how do we know which laws are still valid and which aren't valid anymore? Who decides this? Who decides that drinking alcohol is bad and that women still need to cover their heads but that you can shop on Sunday? Who decides all these things? Somehow it seems like picking the marshmallows out of the pudding.

Read in the NT about circumcision using your concordance. Then come back and tell us what YOU thinks it says. OK? Then we can discuss it some more.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

But the argument which people like David Stern have is simply that Paul was mistranslated or misinterpreted. David H.Stern writes in his Jewish New Testament about this. He thinks that obeying all these laws is good and not bad.

Does it matter what Stern says? Read the first chapter of First Corinthians. The early church faced the same situation, one member saying this, one saying that. There is but one gospel.

Study God's word. Look to Second Timothy 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

 

[xdisciplex]

The scary thing is simply this argument that Paul was mistranslated or misinterpreted and that everything might be totally different. This makes you become totally paranoid and think what if we got it all wrong?

 

[Scarlett O.]

But then how do we know which laws are still valid and which aren't valid anymore? Who decides this? Who decides that drinking alcohol is bad and that women still need to cover their heads but that you can shop on Sunday? Who decides all these things? Somehow it seems like picking the marshmallows out of the pudding.

xdisciplex -

I have answered this very question for you......twice. And both times, you never responded. You simply posted another topic with another question raising doubt about God and His word.

I will nonetheless answer it again.

There are three types of laws in the bibles.

1. Civil Law - Examples of these laws are not mixing fabrics together (so as to not weaken clothing material) and various laws about stonings. These laws do not apply to christians today nor even Jews for that matter because they were civil laws meant for a particular culture at a particular time.

2. Ceremonial Law - Examples of these laws are animal sacrifices and policies for priests. These laws to not apply to christians because Jesus is our sacrifice and we believe in the priesthood of the believer. And they do not apply to Jews today, because the temple is no longer standing.

3. Moral Law - The spirit of these laws are eternal. It was, is, and will always be immoral to murder, lie, cheat, and steal.

Whichever law is troubling you so should be compared to these three standards.

Headcoverings, alcohol consumptions, and Paul's teachings are not law.

 

[xdisciplex]

Thanks.

But what about keeping the sabbath holy? Is this a law?

I don't even know what it means to keep the sabbath holy. For me Sunday is a day like any other day. It's like Saturday, the only difference is that Sunday is usually totally boring and there's nothing good on TV.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Thanks.

But what about keeping the sabbath holy? Is this a law?

This is just my personal opinon, but yes, because it is part of the 10 commandments, it is part of what I call the moral law. Jesus taught that there was a deeper meaning to the 10 commandments than just their literal meaning.

He said that to hate someone was to murder them and that just to think about having an immoral relationship with someone other than your own spouse was adultery.

I believe that there are some deeper meanings to keeping the sabbath than just Jewish traditions about Saturday and Christian traditions about Sunday.

Keeping the sabbath day. It transcends all of time. Just as it was and forever will be a sin murder someone, it has been important and always will be important on this earth for christians to set aside some holy rest and special time with God that is different from any other time.

Does it have to be Saturday? No. That's the literal Jewish Sabbath.

Does it have to be Sunday, The Lord's Day? Not necessarily. For those who teach Sunday School, sing in the choir, teach classes on Sunday nights and are responsible for many extra things at church on Sundays, Sundays are definitely NOT a day of rest or special commune with the Lord.

It can be any time of your choosing. Again, this is just my opinion.

I don't even know what it means to keep the sabbath holy.

Well, it doesn't mean taking a 5 hour nap or being lazy all day and getting nothing accomplished as some people take it to mean.

It means to reserve a constant and regular time during the week to pray more, read the bible more, LISTEN to God a little harder, enjoy His company in a relaxed manner, and to charge up spiritually for the rest of the week. Most people find the weekend is an easier time to observe this unique time of their week.

Many people do this in different ways. Some spend a few hours in a quite place of meditation. Some people DO lie down and rest, but are in a spirit of prayer. Some can do this while driving in the car or do some light work around the house and just talking to God about their day or week or their life.

Then there are people who observe this time with other people. The corporate worship in church revives them.

God rested on the seventh day of creation. Why? He couldn't have been tired. His creative power is limitless and unshakable.

He rested to give us an example of how our minds and bodies and hearts and souls need a boost quite regularly, about once a week. He wants our spiritual and mental and emotional gas tanks to be full. Our life cannot be about works or the constant hustle and bustle of life.

We MUST take a quiet rest once a week, an extra special rest, a unique and different rest....with God.....for our lives to be in balance.

For me Sunday is a day like any other day. It's like Saturday, the only difference is that Sunday is usually totally boring and there's nothing good on TV.

We are not required or forced to make either Saturday or Sunday a "sabbath day". Again, my opinion.

But the spirit of the moral law of the 10 commandments says that we are to "rest" in God's arms in a way that is different from any other part of our relationship with Him on a regular basis.

Keeping a regular and constant and set apart time just you and God is for His name to be praised and for our spiritual health.

Others may feel free to disagree with me. I won't argue the points I have made. This is all simply my own personal belief based on the moral precepts of the 10 commandments and not necessarily their literal meanings.

 

[Amy.G]

Scarlette, excellent post!:thumbsup: I would also like to add that spending special time with God on a daily basis is also important although nothing to do with the Sabbath. Some days I get busy and don't spend my special time with the Lord and I'm sorry because life just isn't as good without that time.