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Do Molecules have Free Will?
- Thread starter Ruiz
- Start date
Bravo :thumbs:
This question, in some sense, asks, "Is God Sovereign" and if God is Sovereign does he control the most minute part of our world? Many believe "no" but I strongly disagree on Biblical counts and would ask, "What areas is God Sovereign?"
God is Sovereign (Acts 4:24, Romans 9:1, I Timothy 6:15, and Revelation 6:10). He was sovereign in creation through his Sovereign election of the molecules to the fashioning of man (Acts 4:24). He is Sovereign in His judgment and how He judges, condemns and avenges the sins of man (Revelation 6:10). The Revelation of God's glory and the ultimate manifestation of God's glory is under the complete sovereign control of God (I Timothy 6:15).
Yet, the Bible infers the Sovereignty of God in other matters. God is Sovereign in the feeding of the birds and feeding us (Matthew 6:26). God controls the falling down of a bird and the number of hairs in your head (Matthew 6:16-33) so we do not have to be afraid of this World, God is Sovereign.
Thus, if God controls the falling down of the Sparrow that is worth a few pennies, why would I not think God is in control of molecules or cells? Is it because we do not like that God is in control of things that are bad or results in things that we perceive as negative?
Yet, the church rejoiced in that God was Sovereign in allowing them to be persecuted (Acts 4). The Bible records that Pilate and those who crucified Christ only did so because this is what God predestined to take place (Acts 4:27-29).
God is sovereign in calamity by bringing it upon evil men (Deut 29:21) but also the good while inflicting pain(Ruth 1:21; I Kings 17:20; Job 21:17; Job 42:11). He also may subside the calamity (I Kings 17:20) but also create calamity (Isaiah 45:7). Yet, God is not the author of sin. While calamity against Jesus and Joseph were horrible, God never meant them for evil (Genesis 50:20) but He still meant them.
If God is the Sovereign of the boils and causes them to happen (Job 42:11) then even the issue my friend if facing is appointed by God.
Yet, God does work all things together for good. Even this situation is a good situation designed by God to invoke a stronger and more precious relationship with God. If this pre-cancer would lead to death, we still can glorify God through the situation. This is not something devoid of God's grace and mercy, but is ultimately a part of God's grace and mercy.
Even in situations like these, I am comforted in knowing it was given to me by God so that I may cherish God moreso. This is not some random chance event, but an event which shows God's great glory and I choose to worship God's Sovereign work, not despise it.
God is Sovereign (Acts 4:24, Romans 9:1, I Timothy 6:15, and Revelation 6:10). He was sovereign in creation through his Sovereign election of the molecules to the fashioning of man (Acts 4:24). He is Sovereign in His judgment and how He judges, condemns and avenges the sins of man (Revelation 6:10). The Revelation of God's glory and the ultimate manifestation of God's glory is under the complete sovereign control of God (I Timothy 6:15).
Yet, the Bible infers the Sovereignty of God in other matters. God is Sovereign in the feeding of the birds and feeding us (Matthew 6:26). God controls the falling down of a bird and the number of hairs in your head (Matthew 6:16-33) so we do not have to be afraid of this World, God is Sovereign.
Thus, if God controls the falling down of the Sparrow that is worth a few pennies, why would I not think God is in control of molecules or cells? Is it because we do not like that God is in control of things that are bad or results in things that we perceive as negative?
Yet, the church rejoiced in that God was Sovereign in allowing them to be persecuted (Acts 4). The Bible records that Pilate and those who crucified Christ only did so because this is what God predestined to take place (Acts 4:27-29).
God is sovereign in calamity by bringing it upon evil men (Deut 29:21) but also the good while inflicting pain(Ruth 1:21; I Kings 17:20; Job 21:17; Job 42:11). He also may subside the calamity (I Kings 17:20) but also create calamity (Isaiah 45:7). Yet, God is not the author of sin. While calamity against Jesus and Joseph were horrible, God never meant them for evil (Genesis 50:20) but He still meant them.
If God is the Sovereign of the boils and causes them to happen (Job 42:11) then even the issue my friend if facing is appointed by God.
Yet, God does work all things together for good. Even this situation is a good situation designed by God to invoke a stronger and more precious relationship with God. If this pre-cancer would lead to death, we still can glorify God through the situation. This is not something devoid of God's grace and mercy, but is ultimately a part of God's grace and mercy.
Even in situations like these, I am comforted in knowing it was given to me by God so that I may cherish God moreso. This is not some random chance event, but an event which shows God's great glory and I choose to worship God's Sovereign work, not despise it.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Ruiz, with all due respect and humility, I think you pose the question (problem) improperly. To be sure, there are many who ascribe absolutely no sovereignty to God whatsoever.
But for believers, (Christians) I (me ) think the question is not Whether God is sovereign, scriptures and more attest to that fact. The question to probe, is How much and to what degree to he exercises His Sovereignty over any and all events within the universe. No reasonable minded person who acknowledges even the existence of God questions His ability to be sovereign in any situation.
It is my position, that He has intentionally woven "randomness" (quantum fluctuations) into the fabric of creation in order to permit the existence of free will among we who are created in His image. It is certainly a point of debate for the philosophically inclined as to whether free will exists at all, or if it does, then in what degree.
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I am fascinated by your statements. However I find no scriptural support for contentions that God has woven "randomness into the fabric of creation in order to permit the existence of free will...." There are many other contentions I find not supported by Scripture. I was careful to provide scriptural proof for my belief but yours I find difficult to find in the pages of Scripture. Since this is a discussion of Scripture, I would expect the use of Scripture to support your view.
I believe that God is actively Sovereign over all things (Ephesians 1:11), thus there is no such thing as randomness from the perspective of God (though, we humans seem to see some randomness in the world. It is not random at all, merely appears to be random to us).
quantumfaith
Active Member
OK, then, I will bow out. I am not a theologian. But I will say, I believe scripture to the ultimate authority, but I do not think scripture addresses all manner and mystery of God. I agree, scripture says nothing at all of quantum physics, or how it may be a part of the fabric of creation, but then again, there are many things that "scripture" does not directly name that believers hold affectionately and confidently.
I, speaking personally, find nothing "wrong" with probing, contemplating and analyzing God's creation and doing the best with our finite but God given gift of rational thought to seek to understand "how things work".
That free will exists is shown in the conversation God had with Cain.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
God himself makes it perfectly clear here that Cain had the ability and could do well if he so chose. And God said he would be accepted if he did. God also made it clear that Cain could choose to not do well.
And Cain was spiritually dead when God said this to him. We know that because the NT tells us that Cain was lost.
If you believe that God controls every event that happens, then you have to believe that God causes evil. When someone murders another person, or when some pervert molests a child, you have to believe God caused this to happen. This is absolutely unacceptable to me, and disagrees with scripture. God never causes any person to sin.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
The Jews went astray and followed false gods, sacrificing their own children to Baal. God said he never commanded this and that this idea never came into his heart or mind.
Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
God did not command or cause the Jews to sacrifice their children to Baal, he says so twice.
God is sovereign, but it is clear that he has allowed man a certain degree of freedom to act independently of him.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
God himself makes it perfectly clear here that Cain had the ability and could do well if he so chose. And God said he would be accepted if he did. God also made it clear that Cain could choose to not do well.
And Cain was spiritually dead when God said this to him. We know that because the NT tells us that Cain was lost.
If you believe that God controls every event that happens, then you have to believe that God causes evil. When someone murders another person, or when some pervert molests a child, you have to believe God caused this to happen. This is absolutely unacceptable to me, and disagrees with scripture. God never causes any person to sin.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
The Jews went astray and followed false gods, sacrificing their own children to Baal. God said he never commanded this and that this idea never came into his heart or mind.
Jer 7:30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
God did not command or cause the Jews to sacrifice their children to Baal, he says so twice.
God is sovereign, but it is clear that he has allowed man a certain degree of freedom to act independently of him.
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Admitedly, I too was a little confused as to what you were asking Ruiz as the O/P Title is "Do molecules have free will".
Even at that, technically speaking, molecules can not have "free will" in that free wil implies intellect, emotion and the ability to reason and make decisions.
Here is a passage of Scripture which gives evidence to that end:
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
In the context of creation there is at least one Scripture that is a possibility:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
This could be a general statement concerning the fact that the material universe not only requires an ex nihilo creation but a constant "upholding" which again IMO means that God constantly maintains the laws and principles of the ongoing existence of this material universe and has not simply left it to it's own.
This would therefore mean that the material universe is bound by the law(s) of God (Thermodyamics, etc) and therefore there is no true "randomness" or "free will" in terms of matter (molecules).
On the other end of the spectrum:
Psalm 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
The advances of man (Hubble telescope) have shown that there are upwards of 100 billion galaxies each containing upwards of 100 billion stars, yet God has named each of them which implies an intimate knowledge of each.
Simply awesome, though "awesome" does not touch the magnificense of the glory of God reflected in the material universe from electrons to pulsars.
But, as I had previously stated, when it comes to adverse circumstances in my seemingly infintesimal and insignificant life, I draw comfort from the fact that He knows all about it and cares.
1 Peter 5
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
Psalm 111:1 Praise ye the LORD. I will praise the LORD with my whole heart, in the assembly of the upright, and in the congregation.
2 The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.
3 His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion.
2 The works of the LORD are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein.
3 His work is honourable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion.
Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
MY God bless you brother and your friend, I have prayed for her.
HankD
Hebrews 1:3 does say God is "upholding" all things. This shows a resistance against decay. It is similar to when they had to hold Moses's arms up.
Exo 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to to the top of the hill.
11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
It is a scientific fact that all things tend toward order and chaos. All things wear out and decay. But God is upholding all things, he is keeping the world that now is, just as Aaron and Hur held up Moses's arms when they tired.
2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
So, I believe what is shown is that the heavens and earth which are now are kept or preserved. Naturally they would tend toward chaos, the planets and stars would leave their orbits and all the universe would collapse.
Before the curse, there was no tendency toward disorder and chaos. And this is the curse that will be removed in the new heavens and earth.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
In the new heavens and earth things will be restored as they were in the garden of Eden before sin and death were introduced. There will be no more curse. Things will not tend toward disorder, things will not grow old or wear out.
Exo 17:9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to to the top of the hill.
11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
It is a scientific fact that all things tend toward order and chaos. All things wear out and decay. But God is upholding all things, he is keeping the world that now is, just as Aaron and Hur held up Moses's arms when they tired.
2 Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
So, I believe what is shown is that the heavens and earth which are now are kept or preserved. Naturally they would tend toward chaos, the planets and stars would leave their orbits and all the universe would collapse.
Before the curse, there was no tendency toward disorder and chaos. And this is the curse that will be removed in the new heavens and earth.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
In the new heavens and earth things will be restored as they were in the garden of Eden before sin and death were introduced. There will be no more curse. Things will not tend toward disorder, things will not grow old or wear out.
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quantumfaith
Active Member
To all,
It is my postion, yes , all was created "ex nihlio" by YHWH. But is my conviction that there is a degree of (randomness, i.e. free will) woven into creation simply because that is what God desired. In the case of molecules and atoms (quarks, leptons, photons, gluons and the like, subatomic particles) it is a "stretch" to say that they operate under free will, as that may imply that they have some form of rational thought. They simply operate under the laws of nature created by God, that is, there are certain parameters which they cannot exceed. Again, for me, it is not a question of "Is God able to control all of these" as scripture tells us that "by Him all things are held together". The question for me is how much "direct control and manipulation" of all sub atomic events is "managed and directed" by God.
Again, I do not (emphasis) believe that the Jeffrey Dahmers and Hitlers of the world were purposefully created by God to wreak havoc on humanity, rather such evil is the result of man exercising the degree of freedom granted by the creator. One day, in His presence, I hope to have this issue answered and satisfied.
Can God bring disease upon as individuals? Certainly, He is God. Do I believe that this is the motis operandi of God, no I do not.
Thus, I would not attempt to "comfort" someone suffering from a debilitating illness, much like the friend of Job did, attempting to ascribe the meaning of the disease as being brought upon them from God, that knowledge is "too high for me". Rather, I would attempt to encourage them to seek God and ask for healing or order to bring Honor and Glory to God.
It is my postion, yes , all was created "ex nihlio" by YHWH. But is my conviction that there is a degree of (randomness, i.e. free will) woven into creation simply because that is what God desired. In the case of molecules and atoms (quarks, leptons, photons, gluons and the like, subatomic particles) it is a "stretch" to say that they operate under free will, as that may imply that they have some form of rational thought. They simply operate under the laws of nature created by God, that is, there are certain parameters which they cannot exceed. Again, for me, it is not a question of "Is God able to control all of these" as scripture tells us that "by Him all things are held together". The question for me is how much "direct control and manipulation" of all sub atomic events is "managed and directed" by God.
Again, I do not (emphasis) believe that the Jeffrey Dahmers and Hitlers of the world were purposefully created by God to wreak havoc on humanity, rather such evil is the result of man exercising the degree of freedom granted by the creator. One day, in His presence, I hope to have this issue answered and satisfied.
Can God bring disease upon as individuals? Certainly, He is God. Do I believe that this is the motis operandi of God, no I do not.
Thus, I would not attempt to "comfort" someone suffering from a debilitating illness, much like the friend of Job did, attempting to ascribe the meaning of the disease as being brought upon them from God, that knowledge is "too high for me". Rather, I would attempt to encourage them to seek God and ask for healing or order to bring Honor and Glory to God.
I appreciate this, first of all. However, I don't suppose I understand the alternatives.
There is suffering and pain and death. God is Sovereign above all. He is able to stop any of it. He works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will. In him we live and move and have our being. Through him are all things.
What possible explanation is there for suffering other than God controls it and uses it for his own purposes. And we know what those purposes are- that Christ might be magnified.
Paul understood this well. This is why he could glory in his infirmities.
Jesus said of the blind man that it was not his parents fault but that he was blind so that the glory of God could be made known. Imagine that- spending your whole life in darkness just so God might come by one day and heal your eyes so you could see for only half of your life- and God doing it all that he might be glorified.
There is not an earthquake which God didn't bring to pass. There is not a flood or hurricane which God doesn't control. There is not a death that he has not appointed.
God uses evil as a backdrop to display the glory of his goodness.
And if men must suffer in the process this is a small price to pay for that which is most valuable in all the universe- God's glory.
This is simply not so. I have already posted scripture from Ezekiel where the Jews were sacrificing their children to Baal, and twice God said that he never commanded this, and that it never came into his heart or mind.
You think you are praising God and making him sovereign when you are falsely charging him with sin.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Good point Winman. Obviously the scriptures teach us that God is omniscient, but that does not imply IMHO, that He is ultimate first cause of every action or decision, although nothing escapes Him.
God doesn't have to command it to bring it pass. I do not understand your logic.
Every Arminian, or semi-arminian, as I figure is the case with you, seemsx to have the same problem. They do not think things through to their logical conclusions.
God is in complete control of everything in the universe.
Bad things happen in the universe.
God is in complete control of bad things.
It is really that simple.
_______________________________________________________
Here's another:
All power is God's power and all creatures have it on loan as it were from God.
It takes power to do evil things.
Evil things are done via God's power.
And neither of you really addressed the argument in my previous post.
What possible alternative is there for evil things happening while God is in complete control of it all and all power to perform anything, including evil things, is his.
What is above many Arminian's heads is that evil can be good if it aids the process of bringing Christ glory. (like the blind man for instance)
Well, I do not understand your logic. If God did not command it, nor did it come into his heart and mind, then how else could it come to pass unless men have the ability to act independently of God?
It is your view that is completely illogical, not mine.
That is a very early Old Testament way of thinking ie. "God tormented Saul with evil spirits". But this concept of God is the first cause of everything is not found in the theology of the New Testament.
In fact I would say the opposite is true. God through Jesus is victorious in spite of the evil that exists. Demons are mentioned, a warfare of good and evil is ongoing. Demons "believe" God and tremble.
Hmm, this seems shaky ground go2.
Is the OT not the inspired word of God?
Does it's wording depend upon the contemporary human concepts of God (right or wrong) at the time or as holy men of God were moved by the Holy Spirit?
HankD
quantumfaith
Active Member
So then, God willed and continues to will man to sin?
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quantumfaith
Active Member
And no, (despite my sensing of you being "snippy") your position is not "above" me, I just do not happen to agree with you.