"Do not interpretations belong to God?" #1, Amillennialism: A Word Direct From The Scriptures.

[Alan Dale Gross]

Biblical Theology and Eschatology Amillennialism:
A Word Direct From The Scriptures
by Tony Warren


INTRODUCTION: What position we take on the millennial reign of Christ's kingdom is very important to the Church. And despite the many voices of denial, eschatological agnosticism is akin to blindfolding ourselves to a large part of the scriptures concerning the kingdom of God.

And it is doing so while endeavoring to preach on the nature of that very same kingdom. The reality is, whatever God has inspired written in His word is a revelation to us, and thus cannot ever be looked upon as a non-essential or unimportant.

As faithful Christians we should have the mindset that all of God's word is essential and necessary for sound theology and spiritual growth in living to the glory of God in this world. This is the way that I believe we should approach eschatology.

Eschatology, or the study of the Kingdom of God in His plan concerning the last or final events of history, can be a very complex subject. However, it is also very spiritually profitable and rewarding for the conscientious Christian. The reason that this subject may appear rather confusing to some is the different scriptures that (when not considered circumspectly) often seem to support one point of view or another, are often challenged with strong and convincing retorts. And because many scriptures are used out of context and haphazardly (and yes, even deceitfully), they really don't prove what they are being purported to prove. Thus the end times are often viewed in a rather insular fashion, wherein parts of the scriptures are seemingly in conflict with other parts. As a result, we have competing groups with tunnel vision, unwisely building their eschatology upon their favorite passages, set apart from the big picture of the entire Biblical record.

The four major eschatological positions regarding Christ's Kingdom are called, Amillennialism, Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Praeterism (Preterism). Despite the objections by many theologians, these positions are biblically incompatible with each other. Therefore at best only one of these views can be the truth of scripture. And so it is incumbent upon those who desire truth, to search out the scriptures and earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints. True understanding comes through the diligent study of God's word, as we see in 2nd Timothy 2:15;

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.", via the Spirit, and is born of the faith of Christ. Nothing that God has planned and foretold in His word concerning the human race, is insignificant with regards to our sojourn on this earth. Nor can it be without some planned spiritual bearing on our lives.

In other words, God didn't inspire the doctrines of the millennial reign of Christ to be penned and incorporated into scripture just to take up space. They are there because the Lord wants us to know about the things to come, and glean just how they are intimately identified with the body of Christ, the things that have been, and things that are.

Thus, whatever is in God's word is basic, necessary, and even essential for living a good Christian life according to the divine purpose and will of God. The bible is the blueprint, the guidebook, and the revelation of what God has given us to know of these things. So in order to have a truly accurate understanding of eschatology, we must search these divinely inspired scriptures, rather than the dogmas and traditions of men.

Whatever prophecy is recorded "within" scripture, is the true authoritative eschatology that God inspired. By the same token, whatever prophecies are from "outside" of the scriptures, are of personal opinion, and thus are an eschatology of private (personal) interpretation, supposition or speculation.

As the prophet Joseph so rhetorically and wisely asked,

"Do not interpretations belong to God?"

in Genesis 40:8;
"And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."" ..indeed they do! Thus His word interprets His word, or as is commonly stated, "the Bible is its own interpreter."

With this basic "Principle" of sound exegesis in mind, I can tell you that Amillennialism is not a word that you will find in the scriptures. That is to say, unless you know exactly what the word delineates. Then you will discover that (like the word trinity), though it's not a word literally written within scripture, it is clearly a word that is used to define and describe the sound biblical doctrine that is.

Therefore, what the word represents is taken "directly" from the pages of the word of God. What we will see in this study is that everything that Amillennialism has stood for is explicitly expressed on the pages of Holy Canon. And in this exposition, we will endeavor to show this conclusively, and without ambiguity.

For what is today commonly called Amillennialism, is "nothing more" than what the scriptures themselves plainly declare. In its pure form, it is the undeniable and biblically validated truth that the prophesied coming of Messiah, the deliverance of Israel, the binding of Satan, the Peace, Safety, Government, Rule, Temple Building, Righteousness, Prosperity, Kingdom and Millennial Reign of Christ, has indeed already come.

And if this is the truth, then the word Amillennial is simply the testimony to the witness of the word of God itself. It is nothing more than a declaration of God's kept promises, and their ultimate fulfillment in the extension of Christ's Kingdom of heaven, on earth.
...

Millennial Positions: So that we can better understand the debate, we will start with a brief definition of the four major millennial positions in the Church today.

Because in understanding these different eschatologies, we will get a better awareness of how each doctrine views the Church's mandate, plan, and final victory in accomplishing this mission.
...

Amillennialism.

The word millennium is a Latin term meaning one thousand years. It's from the root words [mille], meaning thousand, and [annum], meaning years. In Greek (yes Greek, not Latin), placing the letter "a" before a word negates the word. So a-millennial literally means "no millennium."

However, we should note that contrary to false claims, Amillennialists do in fact believe there is a millennial reign of Christ, but not on an temporal physical throne upon this sin cursed earth.

They believe that the Messiah has come to reign upon the throne of David in the Kingdom of heaven.

So the word Amillennial itself is literally accurate as it is understood to mean, "no millennial reign on an earthly or worldly throne." Use of this word in any sense other than a "no future earthly kingdom reign," would be a misnomer.

This view of eschatology maintains that the Present Reign of Christ, in our current time we are experiencing, in The New Testament Era of the Gospel Church Age,
in Revelation 20:4;

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." For the seventh time, as in the beginnings of each of the parallel Visions of John in Revelation, again Jesus, in Revelation 20:4, began with His ascension to the Throne of God, and that this is what the apostle Peter was speaking about in Acts 2:30-32;

"Therefore being a Prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to Him, that of the fruit of His loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit on His throne;

He seeing this before spake of the Resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses." Acts 2:30-32.

Christ instituted His Kingdom Reign by His death, Resurrection, and Ascension to the throne of David, and it will be fully realized and manifested in Heaven at His Second Coming.


Note: Do you see that from Revelation 20:4
and that it is shown there in Acts 2:30-32?

"Do not interpretations belong to God?"

The Amillennial Christian does not support the idea that the Kingdom of Christ is an intangible, but that it is incontrovertibly real, effectual, substantive, factual and essential. The Kingdom is of a Spiritual, rather than worldly (earthly) or carnal nature. They believe that the Kingdom of Christ on earth is now being extended and advanced through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, by His witnesses.
...

 

[Jope]

What is your "interpretation" of the fact that the Revelation 20:1-6 passage says that the saints reigning with Christ were beheaded? Are Christians currently universally beheaded?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

What is your "interpretation" of the fact that the Revelation 20:1-6 passage says that the saints reigning with Christ were beheaded? Are Christians currently universally beheaded?

You are.

Ha ha.

That's one way to meet someone, I guess.

I popped this right quick and it is too rich not to pass along, as I am accustomed to do, as long as that doesn't cause you too much forum discomfort.

It is more than refreshing to read how comprehensive, God-Honoring, and on point William Hendricksen is, in;
MORE THAN CONQUERORS
pg. 192;

There is only one Divine Interpretation, for every verse in Scripture; if you have one closer than this, for these verses, I'd like to see it.

"We have seen, therefore, that the ‘thousand years’ of Revelation 20 have a glorious meaning for God’s people on earth.

"Nevertheless, the glories of heaven during this period far transcend those which relate to the earth.

"The next few verses (4-6) describe the condition of the victorious saints in Heaven, not on earth.

"Of course, these two aspects of the millennium, namely,
the earthly (verses 1-3)
and the heavenly (verses 4-6), the binding of Satan and the reign of the saints, are most intimately related.

"It is in connection with the Personal Reign of our Divine and human Mediator as a result of His atoning work (see Rev. 5) that Satan is bound so that his influence on earth is partly paralysed.

"It is in connection with this same Personal Reign of Jesus in and from Heaven that the souls of the departed saints are reigning above (cf. Rev. 3: 21).

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My Throne, even as I also Overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne".

"This Personal Reign of Christ in and from Heaven underlies all the visions of the Apocalypse.

"It is the key to the interpretation of the ‘thousand years’. REVELATION 20-22 2.

"The reign of the saints
(20: 4-6)."

"In order to arrive at a proper conception of these verses, we must again go back in our thoughts to the first century A.D.

"Roman persecutions are raging. Martyrs are calmly laying their heads under the executioner’s sword. Paul had already done this; also James.

"Rather than say, ‘The emperor is Lord’, or drop incense on the altar of a pagan priest as a token of worshipping the emperor, believers confess their Christ even in the midst of the flames and while they are thrown before the wild beasts in the Roman amphitheatres.

"But Christ is not unmindful of His grievously afflicted disciples. He sustains them in order that they may remain faithful to the end.

"For that very reason He gives to His sorely-tried Church the Vision of ‘the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus'
(1: 2, 9; 6: 9).

"He describes these souls—together with those of all departed Christians who had confessed their Lord upon earth—as reigning with Jesus in heaven.

"He says, in effect, ‘Here below: a few years of suffering: there, in that better land above, they live and reign with Christ a thousand years! ’ What a comfort!

"Certainly, the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory which is revealed to the souls of believers reigning with their exalted Lord in Heaven!

"In connection with this ‘thousand year reign’ of verses 4-6 we shall answer three questions.

"First, where does it take place?

"According to the passage which we are considering it takes place in three places.

"(i) The thousand year reign occurs where the thrones are, for we read: ‘And I saw thrones and they sat upon them.’

"Now, according to the entire book of Revelation, the throne of Christ and of His people is invariably in heaven
(Rev. 1: 4; 3 : 21; 4: 2 if.; etc.).

"(ii) The thousand year reign also occurs where the disembodied souls of the martyrs are, for we read:
‘And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.’

"John sees souls, not bodies. He is thinking of souls without bodies, for we read: ‘of them that had been beheaded’.

"In this entire passage there is not a single word about a resurrection of bodies. The distinction between soul and body is even emphasized:
‘the souls of them that had been beheaded’.

"True, the term ‘souls' at times means ‘people’ (e. g. Gn. 46: 27). But in that case you can substitute the term ‘people’ for ‘souls’. Here in Revelation 20 you cannot do so.

"The souls reign during this entire present dispensation until Christ’s second coming.

"Afterwards, it is no longer the souls that reign, for then body and soul are together again.

"Then the saints reign, not for a limited though lengthy period—a thousand years—but ‘for ever and ever’ (22: 5).

"(iii) The thousand year reign also occurs where Jesus lives, for we read ‘And they lived and reigned with Christ.... ’

"The question is, where, according to the Apocalypse, is the place from which the exalted Mediator rules the Universe?

"Where does Jesus live?

"Clearly, it is in heaven. It is in heaven that the Lamb is represented as taking the scroll out of the Hand of Him that sat on the throne (Rev. 5).

"Revelation 12 clearly states that Christ was ‘caught up to God and to His throne... Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell therein’.

"We may safely say, therefore, that the thousand year reign takes place in heaven.

"The next question that has to be answered is, what is its character?

"The nature of this reign may be summarized in four ways as follows.

(i) It is Judging with Christ.

"The ransomed souls in heaven praise Christ for His righteous judgments. They constantly sing: ‘True and Righteous are His Judgments.’

"These souls in Glory are constantly pictured as taking part in all the activities of the Master:

"they sit down with Him in His throne (3: 21);

"they stand with Him on Mount Zion (cf 14: 1);

"they sing before His throne
(cf. 14: 3; 15: 3);

"they shall see His face
(cf. Rev. 22: 4; etc. ).

(ii) It is living with Christ:
‘they did live and did reign’ (see Rev. 7: 9 if·)·

"In heaven these souls respond in a perfect manner to a perfect environment. And what is life but that?

"(iii) It is a sharing of Royal Glory with Christ.

"These souls celebrate the Lamb’s, and thus their own, Victory. With Him they reign. All their prayers are answered; all their wishes are constantly fulfilled.

"(iv) It is ‘the First Resurrection’.

"The First Resurrection is the translation of the soul from this sinful earth to God’s Holy Heaven.

"It is followed at Christ’s Second Coming by the Second Resurrection when the body, too, will be Glorified.

"Our final question is, who participates in this reign?

"The answer is simple and easy. First of all, all the souls of the martyrs, ‘those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus’.

"Secondly, all other believers who died in their faith,
‘such as worshipped not the beast’, etc.

"The rest of the dead, that is, all other men who died, the unbelieving dead, lived not until the thousand years are finished.

"When that period is finished, then there is a change. Then they enter ‘the Second Death’.

"In other words, they receive everlasting punishment: not only as for the soul but now also for the body. The change is not for better but for the worse.

"On the other hand, those who have part in the First Resurrection are Blessed and Holy. Over them the Second Death has no power.

"Not only shall they reign with Christ, but they shall also Worship God in Christ as priests throughout the thousand years."

 

[Jope]

You are.

Ha ha.

That's one way to meet someone, I guess

Nice to meet you too

So you believe these saints are in heaven, reigning with Christ.

How come at the end of this thousand year reign, Satan is loosed and the world sets their targets on earthly Jerusalem? Who are involved in this earthly population, if not these very saints described in the verses prior (verses 1-6)?

Revelation 20 NIV, bold emphasis added
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Also, do you believe that Revelation 3:21 describes a distinction between the Father's throne and Jesus' throne?

Revelation 3 NIV
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Again, do you believe that, while David reigned in earthly Jerusalem from his throne there, the Psalms and other Scriptures that mentioned God's throne were speaking of God's throne being in heaven or on earth?

Psalm 11 NIV
4 The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes everyone on earth; his eyes examine them.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

How come at the end of this thousand year reign, Satan is loosed and the world sets their targets on earthly Jerusalem? Who are involved in this earthly population, if not these very saints described in the verses prior (verses 1-6)?

Because, the thousand years and the depiction of them are over, it looks to me like you said.

Also, do you believe that Revelation 3:21 describes a distinction between the Father's throne and Jesus' throne?

Revelation 3 NIV
21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

There is no more distinction between The Throne of God than their is between God.

Again, do you believe that, while David reigned in earthly Jerusalem from his throne there, the Psalms and other Scriptures that mentioned God's throne were speaking of God's throne being in heaven or on earth?

Psalm 11 NIV
4 The Lord is in his holy temple; the Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes everyone on earth; his eyes examine

I`m going to have to say God`s Heavenly Throne is in Heaven.

Do you believe that you have any questions that don`t already have the answer in the question asked?

 

[Jope]

Because, the thousand years and the depiction of them are over, it looks to me like you said.

Hello and good morning.

This doesn't answer my question. I asked
"Who are involved in this earthly population, if not these very saints described in the verses prior (verses 1-6)?"

There is no more distinction between The Throne of God than their is between God.

So you don't believe there is a distinction in thrones here:

Rev 3:21 ESV
[Jesus speaking] The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne

As for your claim that "There is no more distinction between The Throne of God than their is between God", this isnt the only distinction between Jesus and the Father.

No man knows the hour of the advent of Christ, not even Jesus, only the Father. Mt. 24:36.

Do you believe that the Son DOES know the hour and Jesus was lying here?

I`m going to have to say God`s Heavenly Throne is in Heaven.

Do you believe that you have any questions that don`t already have the answer in the question asked?

So you agree that, while David reigned from his earthly throne in Jerusalem, God reigned from his heavenly throne in heaven?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

No man knows the hour of the advent of Christ, not even Jesus, only the Father. Mt. 24:36.
Do you believe that the Son DOES know the hour and Jesus was lying here?

Matthew 24:36;
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only."

Jesus didn't say that He didn't know, as The Second Person of The Godhead.

"but My Father only" knows, speaking specifically to the exclusion of all creatures, Angels and men; but not to the exclusion of Christ as God, Who, as such, is Omniscient.

This is no different than, a phrase spoken by Jesus in Mark 10:18, "Why call ye me good" is where He is essentially saying that only God is Truly Good, and by calling Him "good," the person is inadvertently ascribing a Divine Attribute to Him that only belongs to God; it's a way of subtly correcting the person's perception of His Own Divinity.

When Jesus says there in Mark, "there is none Good but One, that is, God,"

He didn't say, "I am not God, or I Am not Good", either one.

By asking, “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus is forcing the young man to reflect on his own perception of Who Jesus is.

Unintentionally, this ruler had made an audacious—though entirely accurate—claim about Jesus. All the Goodness that is God is in Jesus Christ as well.

From Mark 13:32 where that phrase stands; "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the Son, but the Father", must be understood of Christ as the son of man, and not as the Son of God; and He must know also the Day of the Last Judgment, as The Son of God, since it is appointed by God, and he is ordained to execute it:

but the sense is, that as he, as man and Mediator, came not to destroy, but to save; so it was not any part of His Work, as such, as The Son of Man, to know, nor had it in His Direct Commission to make known the Time of The End of The World His Immediate Business and what He did certainly know, as The Son of God, He wasn't telling His Disciples and this was His way of doing that, using a ploy similar to that in Mark.

You have to be on your toes when you're talking to Jesus Christ.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

This doesn't answer my question. I asked
"Who are involved in this earthly population, if not these very saints described in the verses prior (verses 1-6)?"

You did?

The nations are the earthly population, during the "thousand years", which the Devil is not able to deceive. That is the only reference to anyone on Earth, in Revelation 20:1-6.

Do you assume or want to write something else in there, for it to say??

1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

When you come to a passage like this, do you come with some idea in your head that Jesus is on Earth Ruling from His Throne, like Dave ruled on Earth, over the souls mentioned that is different than God's Throne in Heaven?

Otherwise, the passage is right there.

Or, do you come to a passage to see what God says in it?

"In connection with this ‘thousand year reign’ of verses 4-6 we shall answer three questions.

"First, where does it take place?
"According to the passage which we are considering it takes place in three places.

"(i) The thousand year reign occurs where the Thrones are, for we read: ‘And I saw Thrones and they sat upon them.’

"Now, according to the entire book of Revelation, the Throne of Christ and of His people is invariably in Heaven
(Rev. 1: 4; 3 : 21; 4: 2 if.; etc.).

(ii) The thousand year reign also occurs where the disembodied souls of the martyrs are, for we read: ‘And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.’

"John sees souls, not bodies. He is thinking of souls without bodies, for we read:
‘of them that had been beheaded’.

"In this entire passage there is not a single word about a resurrection of bodies.

"The distinction between soul and body is even emphasized: ‘the souls of them that had been beheaded’.

"True, the term ‘souls' at times means ‘people’ (e. g. Gn. 46: 27). But in that case you can substitute the term ‘people’ for ‘souls’. Here in Revelation 20 you cannot do so.

"The souls reign during this entire present dispensation until Christ’s second coming.

"Afterwards, it is no longer the souls that reign, for then body and soul are together again.

"Then the saints reign, not for a limited though lengthy period—a thousand years—but ‘for ever and ever’ (22: 5).

(iii) The thousand year reign also occurs where Jesus lives, for we read ‘And they lived and reigned with Christ.... ’

"The question is, where, according to the Apocalypse, is the place from which the exalted Mediator rules the universe?

Where does Jesus live?

"Clearly, it is in Heaven. It is in heaven that the Lamb is represented as taking the scroll out of the hand of Him that sat on the throne (Rev. 5).

"Revelation 12 clearly states that Christ was ‘caught up to God and to His throne... Therefore, rejoice O Heavens, and ye that dwell therein’.

"We may safely say, therefore, that the thousand year reign takes place in heaven/"

pg.192 MORE THAN CONQUERORS.

 

[Jope]

must be understood of Christ as the son of man, and not as the Son of God; and He must know also the Day of the Last Judgment, as The Son of God, since it is appointed by God, and he is ordained to execute it:

but the sense is, that as he, as man and Mediator, came not to destroy, but to save; so it was not any part of His Work, as such, as The Son of Man, to know, nor had it in His Direct Commission to make known the Time of The End of The World His Immediate Business and what He did certainly know, as The Son of God, He wasn't telling His Disciples and this was His way of doing that, using a ploy similar to that in Mark.

You have to be on your toes when you're talking to Jesus Christ.

So you do believe in a distinction between Christ as Son of man and son of God. Great. Why can't you carry that distinction over to the clearly separate thrones in Rev 3:21?

 

[Jope]

You did?

The nations are the earthly population, during the "thousand years", which the Devil is not able to deceive. That is the only reference to anyone on Earth, in Revelation 20:1-6.

So if these nations are coming against Jerusalem, and the saints are in heaven, why would God care to protect the impervious saints in Jerusalem, by destroying the instigating wicked nations with fire (Rev 20:9)?

 

[Jope]

For @Alan Dale Gross

If there are no saints reigning in the thousand year reign, who are Revelation 5 referring to?

Rev 5 NIV
9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”


I just read revelation 21, and there is no mention of saints reigning in the new heaven and new earth. Not to say i don't think they will reign in new heaven and earth, but it's strange that you claim these saints aren't reigning on earth in the passage where reign is mentioned (in the millennium, Rev 20:1-6), but ARE reigning and begin their reign where no reign is mentioned (the new heaven and earth).

 

[Jope]

For @Alan Dale Gross

If you believe saints are reigning in heaven and that's all Rev 20:1-6 is talking about, then why does Jesus say that when He returns, He sits on His throne (Mt 25:31), and THEN He will give thrones to the followers (Mt. 19:28)?

Also, what throne in distinction is it that Jesus sits on in His second advent in Mt 25:31, if He is already seated on David's throne in heaven (synonymously called Jesus' throne because He inherited it by descending through David as the rightful heir of David's eternal, immortal throne from that Davidic covenant)?

 

[37818]

The notion amillennialism is a word direct from the Scripture is simply not true.

Revelation 20:1-9.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

So you do believe in a distinction between Christ as Son of man and son of God. Great. Why can't you carry that distinction over to the clearly separate thrones in Rev 3:21?

Because, I am not desperate to invent a Throne that doesn`t and never will exist on earth, just off the top of my unaided carnal reasoning head that is afflicted by the Fall of Adam, in my flesh, to rewrite what God wrote. No juggling between the Son of Man and The Son of God and God the Father and mixing up any similarities or distinctions between them and then adding in that your talking about their Throne, then taking away that you`re talking about their Throne, then pulling it back out again, will get anybody where you have already decided you are going to go, no matter what. Give it up.

So if these nations are coming against Jerusalem, and the saints are in heaven, why would God care to protect the impervious saints in Jerusalem, by destroying the instigating wicked nations with fire (Rev 20:9)?

Nothing is said or has been said about the saints in Revelation 1:9 being in Heaven.

If there are no saints reigning in the thousand year reign,

The Bible says there are saints reigning in the thousand year reign.

Are you trying to pay attention to anything in The Bible, or not?

If there are no saints reigning in the thousand year reign, who are Revelation 5 referring to?

Rev 5 NIV
9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Those souls who are saved on Earth out of every tribe and nation have been made kings serving in and through Jesus` kingdom on Earth, as He Rules and Reigns over them, as their Worthy King in Heaven, and those saved saints have been made to be priests, seated together in Heavenly Places, through their prays to Him and His answers to their prayers, in His Intercession for them as they "serve" Him, on Earth, and since all who are saved immediately begin their reign with Him on Earth, now, in those ways, "they will reign on the earth" with Jesus, just as they doing so, now, they will continue to reign with Him on Earth, until His Second Coming, at which time they will all live and reign on The New Earth.

“those” who are redeemed by the Lamb and made a kingdom of priests.

There is no question of the verb tense of “reign” in v. 10. Both the future (“they shall reign on the earth”) and the present tense (“they are” or “do reign on the earth”) are supported by substantial manuscript evidence. According to Revelation 1:5-6 we are already a kingdom and priests to God, as is also the case here in 5:10. This would lends support to the idea that the redeemed currently reign on the earth. This is an example of the “already / not yet” tension in Scripture. We already reign as a kingdom and priests, but not yet have we entered into the full dimensions of that reign, which will come only with the creation of the “new earth”).

Jesus said, "on this rock I will build My church", and yet, He had already Founded and Established His church as an Organization, Instituted when He called His Disciples together, who had all been prepared for Jesus to use as the material from which He had already begun to build His Church. He is saying, I have build and will continue to build and edify My church that I have initiated, as a Divine Entity,

Tomorrow, you will be a member of the BB. What are you now? A member of the BB.

The Lord`s saved saints will reign on Earth. What are they doing now and what have they been doing ?
They have been reigning on Earth, as kings and priests. And they will until He Comes Again,, there is no stopping them from continuing to reign on the Earth,, That is just what His saved souls as kings and priests have always done and they will reign as kings and priests on the Earth, still.

it's strange that you claim these saints aren't reigning on earth in the passage where reign is mentioned (in the millennium, Rev 20:1-6),

If that is all Satan has to do is give an an equation, where "saints" + "reigned" = "on earth", automatically, THAT IS STRANGE.

 

[Jope]

Because, I am not desperate to invent a Throne that doesn`t and never will exist on earth, just off the top of my unaided carnal reasoning head that is afflicted by the Fall of Adam, in my flesh, to rewrite what God wrote. No juggling between the Son of Man and The Son of God and God the Father and mixing up any similarities or distinctions between them and then adding in that your talking about their Throne, then taking away that you`re talking about their Throne, then pulling it back out again, will get anybody where you have already decided you are going to go, no matter what. Give it up.


Nothing is said or has been said about the saints in Revelation 1:9 being in Heaven.


The Bible says there are saints reigning in the thousand year reign.

Are you trying to pay attention to anything in The Bible, or not?


Those souls who are saved on Earth out of every tribe and nation have been made kings serving in and through Jesus` kingdom on Earth, as He Rules and Reigns over them, as their Worthy King in Heaven, and those saved saints have been made to be priests, seated together in Heavenly Places, through their prays to Him and His answers to their prayers, in His Intercession for them as they "serve" Him, on Earth, and since all who are saved immediately begin their reign with Him on Earth, now, in those ways, "they will reign on the earth" with Jesus, just as they doing so, now, they will continue to reign with Him on Earth, until His Second Coming, at which time they will all live and reign on The New Earth.

“those” who are redeemed by the Lamb and made a kingdom of priests.

There is no question of the verb tense of “reign” in v. 10. Both the future (“they shall reign on the earth”) and the present tense (“they are” or “do reign on the earth”) are supported by substantial manuscript evidence. According to Revelation 1:5-6 we are already a kingdom and priests to God, as is also the case here in 5:10. This would lends support to the idea that the redeemed currently reign on the earth. This is an example of the “already / not yet” tension in Scripture. We already reign as a kingdom and priests, but not yet have we entered into the full dimensions of that reign, which will come only with the creation of the “new earth”).

Jesus said, "on this rock I will build My church", and yet, He had already Founded and Established His church as an Organization, Instituted when He called His Disciples together, who had all been prepared for Jesus to use as the material from which He had already begun to build His Church. He is saying, I have build and will continue to build and edify My church that I have initiated, as a Divine Entity,

Tomorrow, you will be a member of the BB. What are you now? A member of the BB.

The Lord`s saved saints will reign on Earth. What are they doing now and what have they been doing ?
They have been reigning on Earth, as kings and priests. And they will until He Comes Again,, there is no stopping them from continuing to reign on the Earth,, That is just what His saved souls as kings and priests have always done and they will reign as kings and priests on the Earth, still.




If that is all Satan has to do is give an an equation, where "saints" + "reigned" = "on earth", automatically, THAT IS STRANGE.

So long winded...lol

 

[Jope]

....aaaannd @Alan Dale Gross wins the circumlocution prize!

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

If you believe saints are reigning in heaven and that's all Rev 20:1-6

In the Bible, the saints reigning in the one thousand years are in Heaven, because I don't know if you know this or not, but the souls of martyred saints who have been beheaded are not on Earth, they are in Heaven.

No one said anything about saints not reigning anywhere else.

You would be best for you to learn that there are distinctions between things, sometimes.

DURING THE THOUSAND-YEAR REIGN, THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT THE ONLY SAINTS ASSOCIATED WITH ITS MENTION, ARE IN HEAVEN.

Jesus say that when He returns,

When Jesus Returns, the thousand years have come to an end.

He sits on His throne (Mt 25:31),

Jesus is still allowed to sit on His Throne, after the thousand years.

and THEN He will give thrones to the followers (Mt. 19:28)

Jesus is allowed to give thrones, where He says, "ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel", after the thousand years He referred to in Revelation 20:1-6, have concluded.

Also, what throne in distinction is it that Jesus sits on in His second advent in Mt 25:31, if He is already seated on David's throne in heaven

The entire 4th chapter has Jesus sitting on His Throne, after His Ascension.

The Throne in Heaven

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Luke 1:32-33
The angel Gabriel told Mary that Jesus would be given the throne of David and would reign over the house of Jacob forever.

Revelation 3:21
Jesus says that he will grant the believer who overcomes to sit with him on his throne.

Acts 2:29-36
God raised Christ to sit on David's throne and exalted him to the right hand of God.

Isaiah 9:7
The Lord God will give Jesus the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever.

• 
  

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

• 
  
  
  
  

The notion amillennialism is a word direct from the Scripture is simply not true.

Revelation 20:1-9.

The notion that you can always just say things you don't understand are rejected, is rejected.

You don't have any other Method of End Times Prophecy Interpretation that hasn't been proven to be demonstrable heresy, according to the plain Revealed Word of God, do you?

So long winded...lol

You have a way to stop people from thinking they are God and trying to say that the Bible says things that are solely just off the top of their unaided carnal reasoning head that is afflicted by the Fall of Adam, in their flesh, to rewrite what God wrote that is shorter?

 

[Jope]

You have a way to stop people from thinking they are God

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

So you do believe in a distinction between Christ as Son of man and son of God. Great. Why can't you carry that distinction over to the clearly separate thrones in Rev 3:21?

To make a distinction between the Throne of God the Father, whereon Christ sits, and the Throne of Christ, whereon the believer is to sit with Him, is entirely wrong, because Jesus, as God is Ruling on God's Throne, so The Throne of God and The Throne of the Lamb, as God, is one.

In contrast, Paul says, "God Raised Christ from the dead and Seated Him at His Right Hand in the Heavenly Realm, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come, and He put all things under His feet in subjection, and Gave Him Headship over all things to the church which is His body, the fulness of Him Who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:19-23).

The Old Testament certainly Prophesied that Jesus would Rule on David’s throne.

There is no question about that;
(Psalms 132:11, Psalm 89:3-4, 2 Samuel 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6-7, cf Luke 1:31-32).

The question that must be raised is not what these Prophecies say (that Christ would sit on David’s throne) but when and where they were to be Fulfilled.

The answer to this question and the Fulfillment of the Throne Promise is found within Acts 2:25-36.

25 For David speaketh concerning Him, I foresaw the Lord always before My face, for He is on My Right Hand, that I should not be moved:

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had Sworn with an Oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would Raise up Christ to Sit on His Throne;

33 Therefore being by the Right Gand of God Exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the Heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on My Right Hand,

35 Until I Make Thy foes Thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath Made that Same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

The Throne Prophecies were Fulfilled at Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension;
they are not still waiting to be Fulfilled at His Second Coming.

Peter says that because David knew God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one of David’s descendants on David’s throne therefore David looked ahead and Prophesied of the Resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:30-31).

Do you notice the significance of that? David, with the Throne Promise in mind,
spoke not of the Second Coming of Christ but of the Resurrection of Christ.

It is the Resurrection of Christ and His Ascension to the Right Hand of God
that Fulfills the Throne Promise.

I did not say that.

The inspired apostle Peter did.

That is not my interpretation of the Throne Prophecies.

That is the Inspired Interpretation.

• The Throne Promise was Fulfilled when? At the Resurrection of Christ.
• The Throne Promise was Fulfilled where? In Heaven.

This is confirmed in Daniel’s vision (Daniel 7:13-14). The vision pictures Christ coming before the Ancient of Days. This is a clear reference to His Ascension, furthermore the event takes place in Heaven, not on Earth. The vision goes on to describe Christ being given the Kingdom.

Premillennialists say the Throne promise will be fulfilled on Earth at the Second Coming of Christ. Acts 2:25-36 says it was fulfilled in Heaven at the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. Which do you believe?

Jesus was able to say, "I have sat down with my Father in His Throne" (Revelation 3:21).

It is strange to think that Jesus is going to be demoted from His Heavenly Throne to a Throne here on Earth —and in fact, it cannot happen.

As we shall see in the NEW THREAD:

Is Jesus Going to be Demoted from His Heavenly Throne
to a Throne here on Earth?
No, There Will Be No Earthly Throne of Jesus,

there are three Prophetic statements that Christ would break if He were to Reign on David’s throne in Earthly Jerusalem.

Therefore, we are obliged to understand what Isaiah means, or what any prophet or what any preacher of the Word, means when speaking of Messiah seated on the throne of David. The throne of David is not the Throne of God. Some contemporary theologians claim that Jesus is now seated on the throne of David at the Right Hand of God; but they could not be more wrong. Our Saviour is indeed Seated at the Right Hand of God [COLOSSIANS 3:1]. However, the Throne of God is distinct from the throne of David.