Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
By getting into The Book, seriously, and seeing if God Will Grant them The Eternal Spiritual Blessing of believing what He says in The Bible. They won't think they can play God, then.
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"Do not interpretations belong to God?" #1, Amillennialism: A Word Direct From The Scriptures.
- Thread starter Alan Dale Gross
- Start date
By getting into The Book, seriously, and seeing if God Will Grant them The Eternal Spiritual Blessing of believing what He says in The Bible. They won't think they can play God, then.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
I win the 'wasting my time trying to be careful explaining The Bible,
with someone who doesn't care what God says' prize.
When the angel announced to Mary that she will give birth to the Christ so that he could enter planet Earth, and that He would be given the throne of David (v. 32), and rule over Abraham (Jacob's)'s offspring (v. 33), she stated that she believed the Abrahamic earthly Covenant was being considered (v. 55), as did Zechariah (v. 73): the latter believed the Davidic covenant was in consideration as well (v. 69). Were Mary and Zechariah deceived, and David's throne was not in consideration when Jesus entered Earth?
Luke 1 NIV
32 [Christ, Mary's child] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end
...
67 Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:
68 “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David
70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
71 salvation from our enemies
and from the hand of all who hate us—
72 to show mercy to our ancestors
and to remember his holy covenant,
73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
and to enable us to serve him without fear
75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.
Also, when Jesus returns, he WILL sit on His throne (Mt. 25:31).
Mt. 25:31 NIV
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne
Other Scripture states that there will be a regeneration when Jesus sits on His throne (Mt. 19:28).
Mt. 19:28 NIV
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Can you tell me anywhere in scripture specifically where it mentions Jesus is presently sitting on His throne?
Nice straw man fallacy. I asked what scriptures state Jesus is sitting on HIS throne, as Rev. 3:21 distinguishes between Jesus' throne and the Father's throne (at the right hand of God). Even your scholars admit this.
Don't you see a direct contradiction between your two statements here? I mean, don't feel bad: your father Augustine also fell sway to this conundrum of Amillennialism.
Even John Calvin believed, about the kingdom mentioned in the Lord's prayer, "thy kingdom come",
"this kingdom consists of two parts..." (Institutes, Book 3, Ch. 20, Part C, section 42).
This is speaking of distinction in the kingdom, not necessarily the throne, but it would make sense to see that, a distinction in thrones also implies distinction in kingdoms.
What is funny is that at the end of this post you claim that there is a distinction between Jesus' throne and the Father's throne.
It is curious to watch you interpret a passage and then claim your interpretation is the only valid one and that your interpretation is inspired.
All that Peter is saying here is that since Christ is the inheritor and fulfillor of David's covenant, as He claimed to be throughout His minstry and was recognized as such, He must be resurrected and show that death has no mastery over Him, to sit on David's throne. A dead man cannot sit on David's throne and rule for eternity, not having eternal life. The resurrection of Christ proves that He is the only legitimate heir and candidate for the occupier of David's throne, since the Davidic covenant required an immortal heir of David's to sit on David's throne for eternity (read the Davidic Covenant again--the immortal characteristic is mentioned a number of times in it).
No where does Peter claim explicitly that Jesus is presently seated on David's throne.
Augustine's commentary on Psalm 16:10:
"The Spirit here foreshows the glorious truth that death could not detain our Lord. Christ breaks the icy shackles; He leaves the short imprisonment. No corruption taints the sacred body. He stands again alive on earth" (bold emphasis added).
In this verse (Acts 2:34-35), David is claiming that Jesus (David's Lord) would sit on the LORD's right hand, on His throne with Him, in heaven (Psalm 103:19, etc.), until the LORD makes Jesus' foes a footstool.
You have acknowledged that the Father's throne which Jesus is sitting on, is different from David's throne:
If you logically apply this to Acts 2:34-35 (above), you will come to the conclusion that Peter says nothing about the resurrection of Christ being the fulfillment of Jesus sitting on the throne of David. The resurrection of Christ only safeguards Jesus' true rights and claims to sit on the Davidic throne, since the Davidic covenant required an immortal heir to sit on it to fulfill the eternal aspect of said covenant. The LORD has Jesus sitting on His right hand in the heavenly throne until Jesus' enemies are made his footstool. When Jesus' enemies are made His footstool, Jesus will no longer sit on the Father's heavenly throne, but on David's throne.
Well at least it's not heretical...
Hippolytus:
"For, in the view of apostles and prophets and teachers, the mystery of the divine incarnation has been distinguished as having two points of contemplation natural to it, distinct in all things, inasmuch as on the one hand it is the subsistence of perfect deity, and on the other is demonstrative of full humanity" - Fragment IV
It got Orthodoxy for John of Damascus in the 7th century:
"The Deity, then, is quite unchangeable and invariable. For all things which are not in our hands He hath predetermined by His foreknowledge, each in its own proper and peculiar time and place. And accordingly the Father judgeth no one, but hath given all judgment to the Son . For clearly the Father and the Son and also the Holy Spirit judged as God. But the Son Himself will descend in the body as man, and will sit on the throne of Glory (for descending and sitting require circumscribed body), and will judge all the world in justice." - John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, Bk 1, Pt 4, Ch. XIII
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Suffering for His sake, Alan.
No they have not, or I would be reigning with them and Him.
Yes, Alan.
We as believers will reign with Him, just as it says in Revelation 20.
When He comes again, He will be at Jerusalem ( and us with Him ), just as it tells us here:
"Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee." ( Zechariah 14:3-5 ).
And here:
"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." ( Isaiah 2:1-4 )
and here:
" Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion." ( Psalms 2: 6 ).
and here:
" In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 and I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever." ( Micah 4:6-7 )
Mt. Zion is Jerusalem.
Alan, it's not difficult to read His word and find where it is blatantly stated that He will rule from Jerusalem, my friend.
Neither is it hard to see that we will be with Him.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Where?
The Bible has eliminated all other Methods of End Times Interpretation as man-made, extra-biblical musings, with Scripture compared to Scripture remaining, which gives us God's Intended meaning for any given passage, without the need to "add to" and "take away" from His Word, based solely on the fanciful imagination and influence of Satan over sin-cursed mankind.
God's Preserved Words are Alive and Witnessed to by The Holy Spirit, anytime The Bible is cracked open where they can get out and they will accomplish that unto which they are Sent.
"Premillennialists say the Throne promise will be fulfilled on Earth", without one word of scripture to substantiate such a brazen, bold, gratuitous assertion, to which may, for the sake of honesty, be perfectly answered with just as much validity, as their rash guesswork, by saying, "no the Throne promise will not be fulfilled on Earth", which brings their presumption immediately back to zero.
Where?
Where?
That is the Inspired Interpretation.
Never have I ever witnessed anyone using the word, "explicitly", concerning the Word of God, who indicates they know what it is saying, if it was driving down the Interstate at 75 mph.
What is funny is that at the end of this post you claim Augustine mentioning that Jesus stood on the Earth again after His Resurrection has anything to do with Augustine claiming anything about Jesus' Second Coming, which he does not mention, and that a quote from someone who was an Amillieniallist that doesn't mention a word about the point you think you can make that way, is an intelligent course of action for you.
Can mods boot people for being delusional and self-absorbed? What about people who post on here who can't even remember what they said or follow the conversation?
Maybe someone reading this convo could enlighten me.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
When we have the Inspired writer in The Inspired New Testament Interpreting The Inspired Old Testament Prophecy, that is The Divine-Inspired Interpretation.
1 "If ye then be Risen with Christ, seek those Things which are Above, where Christ Sitteth on the Right Hand of God.
2 "Set your affection on Things Above, not on things on the Earth.
3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 "When Christ, Who is our life, shall Appear, then shall ye also Appear with Him in Glory."
The resurrection of Christ...does... safeguard Jesus' true rights and claims to sit on the Davidic throne, since the Davidic covenant required an immortal heir to sit on it to fulfill the eternal aspect of said covenant. However, Jesus Ascended to The Right Hand of The Throne of God.
The Throne in Heaven;
1 "After this I looked and saw a door standing open in Heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”
2 "At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a Throne standing in Heaven, with Someone Seated on It."
8 "And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying:
“Holy, Holy, Holy,
is the Lord God Almighty,
Who Was and Is and Is to Come!”
9 "And whenever the living creatures give Glory, Honor, and Thanks to the One Seated on the Throne Who Lives Forever and Ever,
10 "the twenty-four elders fall down before the One Seated on the Throne, and they worship Him Who Lives Forever and Ever. They cast their crowns before the Throne, saying:
11“Worthy are You, our Lord and God,
to receive Glory and Honor and Power,
for You Created all things;
by Your Will they exist and came to be.”
The One David claimed would Sit on The Lord's Right Hand, on His Throne in Heaven, was, "a Throne standing in Heaven, with Someone Seated on It", "the One Seated on the Throne Who Lives Forever and Ever", the One Seated on the Throne, and they worship Him Who Lives Forever and Ever".
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named",
Fulfills;
as does;
Nope, Jesus Ascended to Sit on The Throne in Heaven, Forever and Ever.
There is no concept where Jesus will no longer sit on the Father's heavenly throne, but on David's throne, Taught anywhere in The Bible.
Right.
The question that must be raised is not what these Prophecies say (that Christ would sit on David’s throne) but when and where they were to be Fulfilled.
When we have the Inspired writer in The Inspired New Testament Interpreting The Inspired Old Testament Prophecy, that is The Divine-Inspired Interpretation.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
There is nothing stated "at the end of this post", shown above, where I have said anything about, "there is a distinction between Jesus' throne and the Father's throne," or you might have bothered to cite it, rather than consent defeat to the extent that you request that the mods boot you off for being delusional and self-absorbed.
Like people trying to use a Method of Interpreting The End Times, which alludes to the existence of "a thousand-year" reign of the saints, with Jesus' Throne being on Earth, in the name "Premillienialism", where if they could remember, the only Bible Passage describing, "a thousand-years", gives no description of "saints" reigning or Jesus' Throne being "on Earth", unless they can't follow the conversation either and are, therefore, also requesting the mods to boot them for that reason, too.
Your utterly ridiculous desperation of accusing Bible teachers of being extra-biblical was way too far to escalate your panicky defense mode, without stepping it up a level and asking the mods to boot someone, for what you determine to be delusional and self-absorbed when you can't even cite the example of what you think you have decided to complain about being delusional and self-absorbed.
Is that sufficient Enlightenment for you?
Keep standing by an Interpretation Method that The Bible eliminated the moment it was written. In The United States, Religious Liberty is protected by Federal Law.
You will just never be Empowered with the Zeal to Evangelize lost souls, knowing that Jesus' Return is The End of The World and the end of the opportunity for anyone else to have their soul saved, including all lost Jews presently alive when Jesus Comes to Earth at His Second Coming.
Nope. The Last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (1 Cor. 15:24-28). Do you believe this foe has been deatroyed? Are you claiming that Christians are presently immortal?
If you don't believe death has been destroyed, Psalm 110:1 hasn't been fulfilled, and when all of Christ's foes are made his footstool, then Christ will no longer sit at the right hand of the Father. Note the word until in Psalm 110:1.
Psalm 110:1 NIV
The Lord says to my lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.” (bold emphasis added)
What was the error of Hymenaeus and Philetus, again (2 Tim. 2:17)?
Lacking consistency and foresight just like your God. What a surprise. You and your equivocations are just like this false god you have created (Psalm 115:8).
Psalm 115:8 KJV
They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
Dispensational, Premillennial Deity doesnt lack consistency and foresight. The terms "David's throne" and "Israel" always consitently mean just that. The cross didn't cancel the Davidic Kingdom promises, as foreseen in the prophets, who spoke both of Messiah's piercing and of His mighty return to Jerusalem to reign from there forever (Zechariah 12:6, 10; 14:3ff; Psalm 22; etc.).
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I did, in a previous post. Your bias conveniently blinded you to it. Now, instead of catering to your derangement, you can scroll up yourself and do the "hard work" of reading your own lengthy posts and my comparatively short posts. Funny how you can't even read your own posts yet you expect us all to.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Being Born Again into The Kingdom of God, which is God's Rule and Reign on Earth, through His children, we Rule with Him, as kings, under our King in Heaven. "God's children are kings now", means that because God is the Ultimate King, those who are considered His children through Faith in Jesus Christ are essentially Royalty in His Kingdom, sharing in His Glory and Inheritance as "co-heirs with Christ.". This idea is referenced in the Bible, in Romans 8:16-17, where it says, "since we are His children, we are His heirs, co-heirs with Christ." And as Priests who pray to Him, and He Intercedes for us, Jesus has, "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus:" Ephesians 2:6.
- 1 Peter 2:9;
"But you are a Chosen people, a Royal Priesthood, a Holy Nation, God's special Possession, that you may declare the Praises of Him Who Called you out of darkness into His Wonderful Light".
- 1 Peter 1:13–2:12;
Christians are called to represent Jesus and His Kingdom among the communities in which God has placed them.
Revelation 1:5-6;
"To Him Who Loved us and Washed us from our sins in His Own Blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be Glory and Dominion Forever and Ever.
If there is something in Revelation 20 that says anything about, "We as believers will reign with Him", I haven't ever seen it. And, I've got the same Bible you do.