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Do Open theists see God As Eternal?

humblethinker

Active Member
Thank you, will think some more on this. :)

Quantumfaith, while you are thinking on that, or after you think on that, would you mind considering the following: Regarding the free decisions of free creatures, if there is not even a single free decision that God does not know the outcome with certainty, then why would God make an appeal to this creature to do otherwise? In this case, is there any way that such an appeal would not be genuine? Would it not be the case then that God would not be able to know any probabilities, since probabilities would not exist? Of course, He would know them if he had created a world in which they did exist, but, how could probability exist at all in the mind of God if he knows in a way in which there is no probability, ie. certainty?

I value and am interested in your thoughts on the matter.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am in no way saying that Open Theism is Process Theology, but demonstrating where the philosophical ideas of it came from: namely, that
(1) libertarian free will is essential to any being that can be considered "personal"
(2) libertarian free will cannot be true if any person (e.g. God) knows with 100% certainty what any other being (e.g. man) would do
(3) God's "highest attribute" is "love" (not an effectual love, but an ineffectual love that tries to persuade)
(4) God's eternal essence changes (i.e. evolving perfection) as He legitimately takes in new information from His creation, and He and His creatures participate in a "genuine give-and-take" relationship.

The truth is that today's prominent teachers of Open Theism were influenced by the philosophy of process thought. The fact that they reject the unorthodox elements of process teaching is good, but that was not the point I was trying to get across.

Open Theists hammer hard that the "open view" is founded solely on Scripture, whereas the so-called "closed view" or "settled view" is based on Greek philosophy. The truth is that Greek philosophy was by no means monolithic. This is why the stoics, Epicureans, gnostics, and others debated daily in the streets. Just because there is similarity between "Augustinianism" and Platonic arguments about the nature of deity does not mean that it must be wrong and "pagan." Correlation does not prove causation; otherwise, we would have to reject the laws of logic and mathematics.
In fact, open theists make the same arguments that Aristotle (a Greek philosopher) did concerning his Sea Battle scenario. Aristotle asked if a sea battle will happen tomorrow. He argued that we cannot know if a sea battle would happen tomorrow, then statements about the future cannot have "truth values" until the events actually happen. He argued that "the gods" cannot know the future with 100% certainty no matter how powerful they are. Open theists make the same arguments that Greek philosopher Aristotle did about the "truth values" of statements about the future and about the nature about the knowledge of "god." Should we conclude that open theism is paganism? I will not make the same claims of "pagan philosophy" to open theism as open theists make against "closed theism" because I realize that "Greek philosophy" essentially covered all known views about the nature of God's knowledge and of the future.

Greg Boyd entrenched himself in Open Theism by trying to argue a philosophy of God to his agnostic father. It was philosophy that motivated Boyd, and he tried to evangelize his father through a philosophy that would seem to be acceptable or appealing to an agnostic.

John Sanders embraced Open Theism because of his philosophical attempts to understand the nature and purpose of prayer and how it can "affect" God if God knows what we will pray. He also embraced it emotionally because his older brother died in a motorcycle accident and he questioned why God would "kill" his brother. His bachelor's degree is in philosophy and was a professor of philosophy.

I would not "admire" open theists for trying to hold to philosophical elements of something with which I disagree. I respect them for holding on to orthodox elements of Christianity. That doesn't have to mean that I have to like their "open view" ideas or accept that process thought is correct in this area. Nevertheless, my point with the post above was to trace the influence of process thought on Open Theism and demonstrate that Open Theism is highly motivated by philosophy, not just Scripture.

Everyone has a philosophical reasoning for their hermeneutic of Scripture. I would appreciate it if open theists would tone down their charges of "paganism" on most of Christianity up until their recent rise and realize that there is correlation from Greek philosophy to both views.

Bottom line though on Open theism is:

Does it describe/explain God of the Lord jesus Himself or not?
NOT based upon non inspired knowledge, but as per divine revelation of the Bible?

God of the Bible NOT God of the philosophers.

God knowledge is exhaustive , and He is sovereign, and He exists outside from his creation, not bound/stuck in it, affected by its natural laws!

And like so many others who choose to try to rationaly explain expalin God and His ways, they make up a God that suites them, not from the Bible record, same way that Robb bell has done!
 
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preachinjesus

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bottom line is this: open theists cannot explain predictive prophecy.

If God cannot guarantee His plan or character than He is not actually God. The falsehood of Open Theism lies in its incorrect conception of the biblical God.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bottom line is this: open theists cannot explain predictive prophecy.

If God cannot guarantee His plan or character than He is not actually God. The falsehood of Open Theism lies in its incorrect conception of the biblical God.

Good point!

can God be trusted to really be God IF there is even a possibility that future events will happen in a way that will "blind side" Him?

And can even God limit Himself to not knowing future totally, apart from getting Incarnated as a man? Can he do such to Himself IF just in Spirit being?
 

humblethinker

Active Member
Bottom line is this: open theists cannot explain predictive prophecy.

If God cannot guarantee His plan or character than He is not actually God. The falsehood of Open Theism lies in its incorrect conception of the biblical God.

Please... this is not accurate and the information is out there. An omnipotent, omniscient, omniresourceful, faithful God CAN guarantee His plan and character. In what way does foreknowledge inform or enable God to accomplish his plan or guarantee his character? Please reference and back up your claims. Most of your claims amount to mischaracterization and cheap shots.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
can an Eternal being, self existent, even be bothered by time ?

Being eternal, would He really know all things, as he has no future to see/endure, is the "I am"
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reply to OP

would God be eternal to them?

An dwould they see the future as being unknown to even God?

if so, how do we know the end will be as we think it will be, per the bible?

How can we be sure that God "wins out in the end" if Open theist?

Hi Yeshua1, I did not read the thread, so I am just responding to your opening post.

The future to some degree is known to God. The actual issue is whether it is exhaustively predestined and therefore exhaustively known, i.e. closed theism, or whether (a) God can know a future event without His prior knowledge resulting in that certain outcome being fixed and settled or (b) did God create man with the capacity to make autonomous decisions that are not predetermined, thereby giving mankind the capacity to alter the outcome of their lives by choosing either life or death as scripture says.

We know that no plan of God can be thwarted, therefore God will bring about whatever events or circumstances He declared will occur.

We can be certain God will bring about what He has declared by looking back at history and seeing He brought about everything He had declared based on the fulfillment described in scripture.

Limited open theism does not diminish God, it simply accepts what scripture says about God with no need to nullify God's attributes.
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can an eternal all powerful being be bothered with time? Yes. God could create "space/time" and within that universe, create mankind. Then God could relate to mankind "in time." This does not subject God to time, it simply allows God to choose to relate to us in the realm we exist in. Jesus became flesh, demonstrating God's willingness to relate to us in time.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can an eternal all powerful being be bothered with time? Yes. God could create "space/time" and within that universe, create mankind. Then God could relate to mankind "in time." This does not subject God to time, it simply allows God to choose to relate to us in the realm we exist in. Jesus became flesh, demonstrating God's willingness to relate to us in time.

except the God exists independant of ALL other things, ONLY self eternal Being, so immune to time and its effects, not even possible to be in time only as we are!
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
Can an eternal all powerful being be bothered with time? Yes. God could create "space/time" and within that universe, create mankind. Then God could relate to mankind "in time."
God does not need to limit His infinite attributes to relate to His creation (man) inside His creation (spacetime). Just because exercises anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms to communicate to His finite creatures, does not mean that part of His eternal being--His knowledge--must be limited as a consequence.*

This does not subject God to time, it simply allows God to choose to relate to us in the realm we exist in.
God relating to us does not require Him to appropriate to His eternal being the limitations He gave to us: namely, limited knowledge that can increase.

Jesus became flesh, demonstrating God's willingness to relate to us in time.
There is a difference between the incarnate God-Man (Jesus Christ) and the actual eternal being of God. The knowledge of Jesus Christ the God-Man was indeed limited (Luke 2:52; Matthew 24:36); the knowledge of the eternal being of God is not.




*If you believe that God's knowledge can increase, you limit His knowledge.
 
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