• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Do Pretierists/Ammillinialists Believe In the Physical Return Of Christ To the Earth?

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Boy does this thread ever make me thankful that I read the Word LITERALLY, unless by statement and/or context directed otherwise. Sure does save a lot of confusion.:thumbsup:

Once the idea of "Scripture says ---, but what it REALLY means is ----" takes root, there's no stopping the decline of interpretation to be whatever you deem suitable to create your own personal comfort/guilt zone!!

I throw in the "guilt" parameter because it seems that some Christians feel guilty that the the rapture will make them miss the trib; it's almost like they don't feel worthy unless they have been persecuted. Well, if the rapture is delayed too many years, there's a great chance you WILL feel the sting of persecution in the USA, based on the direction our country is taking at present.

Hey, I like your tag line. Apart from the fact that I can read those big red words without my glasses even.

I also like it because it is very much backed up by Scripture. So we could either write your tag line (OK, one letter off!):

LITERALISM IS A FATAL DISEASE

Or we can go right to Scripture, 2 Cor. 3:6, and write:

The Letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


Well, I could really get into this shouting business. The bigger your letters are the more your point is made.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

FR7 Baptist

Active Member
I'm an amillennialist and I believe in the physical return of Christ to the earth. Full preterism, on the other hand, denies that cardinal doctrine of the Christian religion. There's a reason why full preterism is, as of yet, the only thing on this board to earn an anathema from me.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Welsh Baptist Morgan Edwards, who became a prominent pastor in America's Philadelphia Baptist Association, wrote in the 1740s:

"my text, “The saints shall reign with Christ [on earth] a thousand years." Other texts say, that all "kingdoms and dominions under the whole heaven shall be given to the saints." (Dan. Vii-- 18. 27): That the saints "shall judge men and angels." (1 Cor. vi, 2. 3). Miserable work do the Antimillenarians make of these texts. And as miserable of the following; "When the son of man shall sit on his throne, ye [my twelve disciples] shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes Israel." (Matt. xix. 28). "I appoint unto you a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom." (Luke xxii. 29, 30.) "Hence forth I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my father's kingdom." (Mat. xxvi. 29.) "To sit on my right hand and on my left [in my kingdom] is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them " for whom it is prepared of my father." (Matt. xx.23). The meek shall inherit the earth." (Matt. v, 5. " Thy kingdom come" &c. (Matt. vi. 10) Literal millennarianism alone will do justice to these texts and many others"


And some wise words from Charles Spurgeon, preaching from Ezekiel:

"I wish never to learn the art of tearing God’s meaning out of His own Words. If there is anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—it must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land and that a king is to rule over them." —"The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews"
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Welsh Baptist Morgan Edwards, who became a prominent pastor in America's Philadelphia Baptist Association, wrote in the 1740s:

"my text, “The saints shall reign with Christ [on earth] a thousand years." Other texts say, that all "kingdoms and dominions under the whole heaven shall be given to the saints." (Dan. Vii-- 18. 27): That the saints "shall judge men and angels." (1 Cor. vi, 2. 3). Miserable work do the Antimillenarians make of these texts. And as miserable of the following; "When the son of man shall sit on his throne, ye [my twelve disciples] shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes Israel." (Matt. xix. 28). "I appoint unto you a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table, in my kingdom." (Luke xxii. 29, 30.) "Hence forth I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my father's kingdom." (Mat. xxvi. 29.) "To sit on my right hand and on my left [in my kingdom] is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them " for whom it is prepared of my father." (Matt. xx.23). The meek shall inherit the earth." (Matt. v, 5. " Thy kingdom come" &c. (Matt. vi. 10) Literal millennarianism alone will do justice to these texts and many others"


And some wise words from Charles Spurgeon, preaching from Ezekiel:

"I wish never to learn the art of tearing God’s meaning out of His own Words. If there is anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage—a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away—it must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land and that a king is to rule over them." —"The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews"

If you crib eschatology notes from Spurgeon, good as he was in many other subjects, you will be doomed to have sketchy and confusing eschatology. Confusing, because he himself was confused and hesitant on the whole subject. I think it was in his "Lectures to My Students" that he wrote about his hesitance on this. I could be wrong on it being that book; I used to read quite a bit of Spurgeon in my earlier years and don't remember where I came across that.

But the fact is that many different eschatological isms claim Spurgeon as one of their own. In many cases because Spurgeon wrote and preached along several veins. In the same way, Spurgeon is claimed both by day-age creationists (which is what he was) and YEC.

So, yes, throw Spurgeon at me. Ha ha. The one who spiritualized away Genesis 1.

I meant to get to the other guy but the real world just intruded again. I will get back to this later, Lord-willing.

Additional:
Here is a quote from Spurgeon, underlining mine:
"In the 2d verse of the first chapter of Genesis, we read, ‘And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.' We know not how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be-certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. But before that era came, wherein man should be its principal tenant and monarch, the Creator gave up the world to confusion."

No one should mistake Spurgeon for a literalist when it comes to creation. I, the heretical preterist, believe in a literal 6 days of creation. Spurgeon, the supposed literalist par excellence, believes in "various stages of existence" stretching over "millions of years", all this before Adam.

Spurgeon broke his own rule. He was guilty of "tearing away God’s meaning out of His own Words." He took the plain sense of Genesis 1 and accommodated it to the spirit of the age: evolutionism.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TomVols

New Member
Amillennialists believe in a literal millennium. It's just not a 1,000 yr reign on earth. We should be honest about the various positions and not cherry pick quotes that give us warm fuzzies.

Anyone who knows amillennialism knows they believe in a literal millennium and a literal return of Christ, as well as a literal tribulation. It just goes to show you that people don't know their theology when they say otherwise, and that should come as no surprise in our theology-allergic church of today.
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm an amillennialist and I believe in the physical return of Christ to the earth. Full preterism, on the other hand, denies that cardinal doctrine of the Christian religion. There's a reason why full preterism is, as of yet, the only thing on this board to earn an anathema from me.

An anathema from you, Paul, is assuring. Out of curiosity, what passages of Scripture can you point to as your basis for anathematizing my view:
1. That Christ's coming physically is a cardinal doctrine, and
2. That you are justified in anathematizing disbelievers in this view of yours?
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
Boy does this thread ever make me thankful that I read the Word LITERALLY, unless by statement and/or context directed otherwise. Sure does save a lot of confusion.:thumbsup:

Once the idea of "Scripture says ---, but what it REALLY means is ----" takes root, there's no stopping the decline of interpretation to be whatever you deem suitable to create your own personal comfort/guilt zone!!

I throw in the "guilt" parameter because it seems that some Christians feel guilty that the the rapture will make them miss the trib; it's almost like they don't feel worthy unless they have been persecuted. Well, if the rapture is delayed too many years, there's a great chance you WILL feel the sting of persecution in the USA, based on the direction our country is taking at present.

I am pre-trib and pre-mil and I do believe we will see things begin to occur that will reveal the begining of the TRIB we are seeing many signs Jesus said would happen. We are seeing greater distruction coming from psunami's caused by earthquakes and we see wars and rumors of wars. All these are signs and we shall see persecution come to the church age believer. But we can calim the promise seen in Revlation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Great promise for all who keep the word of His parience. The hour of tempation the greek word is also translated as tribulation.
 
Amillennialists believe in a literal millennium. It's just not a 1,000 yr reign on earth. We should be honest about the various positions and not cherry pick quotes that give us warm fuzzies.

Anyone who knows amillennialism knows they believe in a literal millennium and a literal return of Christ, as well as a literal tribulation. It just goes to show you that people don't know their theology when they say otherwise, and that should come as no surprise in our theology-allergic church of today.

Bro Tom,

I am an "amil", but the "literal millennium" is quite puzzling to me. Will you please expound on what you meant?

I believe that when Jesus comes in the cloud, He will seperate the sheep from the goats. The goats go down, the sheep go up. The earth is burned up, and a new heaven and new earth come in. This is where New Jerusalem comes as a "bride adorned for her husband". There is no millennium, but an eternity in heaven with God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Ghost!! Praise His sweet name!!!


i am I AM's!!

Willis
 

Allan

Active Member
Amillennialists believe in a literal millennium. It's just not a 1,000 yr reign on earth. We should be honest about the various positions and not cherry pick quotes that give us warm fuzzies.

Anyone who knows amillennialism knows they believe in a literal millennium and a literal return of Christ, as well as a literal tribulation. It just goes to show you that people don't know their theology when they say otherwise, and that should come as no surprise in our theology-allergic church of today.
From the Link Theological Studies
What is Amillennialism?

By Michael J. Vlach, Ph.D.



Amillennialism is a theological view concerning the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ that is mentioned in Revelation 20:1–6. In particular, Amillennialism is the perspective that there will not be a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ upon the earth. The inseparable Latin prefix a means “no” and the term “millennium” is Latin for “1000 years.” Thus, Amillennialism literally means “no 1000 years.”



It should be noted that the term Amillennialism is a reactionary title in that it denies the presence of a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth that premillennialists affirm. However, Amillennialists do in fact believe in a millennium; what they reject, though, is the idea of a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth after the second coming of Christ.



According to Amillennialism, the millennium of Revelation 20:1–6 is being fulfilled spiritually in the present age before the return of Jesus Christ. Thus, the millennium or kingdom of Christ is in existence now. Amillennialists affirm that the millennium began with the resurrection and/or ascension of Christ and will be consummated when Jesus returns again to establish the Eternal Kingdom that is discussed in Revelation 21–22.



For amillennialists, Satan is presently bound and Christians are now enjoying the benefits of the millennium. Some amillennialists claim that the millennium also involves the reigning of saints who are now in heaven. Amillennialists claim that the 1000-year period that is mentioned in Revelation 20:1–6 refers to a long indefinite period of time between the two comings of Christ and is not a literal 1000- year period that occurs after Jesus’ return. Because amillennialists believe Christ is currently reigning in the millennium, some, like Jay Adams, believe the title “Realized Millennialism” is a more appropriate title than “Amillennialism.”



In regard to the end times, Amillennialism affirms the following chronological scenario:



* Christ is now ruling in His kingdom while Satan is bound from deceiving the nations.
* Tribulation is experienced in the present age even though Christ is ruling.
* Jesus will return again to earth.
* After Jesus returns there will be a general bodily resurrection of all the righteous people and a general judgment of all unbelievers.
* The Eternal Kingdom will begin.



Amillennialism in History

Premillennialism, not Amillennialism, was the predominant view in the first 300 years of church history. However, the early church did evidence hints of what later would become Amillennialism. For example, Origen (185-254) popularized the allegorical approach to interpreting Scripture, and in doing so, laid a hermeneutical basis for the view that the promised kingdom of Christ was spiritual and not earthly in nature. Eusebius (270-340), an associate of the emperor Constantine, viewed Constantine’s reign as the Messianic banquet, and he held to anti-premillennial views. Tyconius, an African Donatist of the fourth century, was one of the earliest theologians to challenge Premillennialism. He rejected the eschatological and futuristic view of Revelation 20. Instead, he said that the millennium was being fulfilled in the present age and that the 1000 years mentioned was not a literal 1000 years. Tyconius also viewed the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4 as a spiritual resurrection which was the new birth.

Augustine (354-430), who is often referred to as the ‘Father of Amillennialism,’ popularized the views of Tyconius. Augustine abandoned Premillennialism because of what he considered to be the excesses and carnalities of this view. He also interpreted Mark 3:27 to be a present binding of Satan. Augustine was the first to identify the Catholic Church in its visible form with the kingdom of God. For him, the millennial rule of Christ was taking place in and through the church, including its sacraments and offices. His book, City of God, was significant in the promotion and acceptance of Amillennialism.

Augustine’s Amillennialism quickly became the accepted view of the church. It became so accepted that the Council of Ephesus (431) condemned the premillennial view as superstitious. Amillennialism soon became the prevailing doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and was later adopted by most of the Protestant Reformers including Martin Luther and John Calvin (some Anabaptists held to Premillennialism).


While Premillennialism has experienced a great resurgence in the last 200 hundred years, Amillennialism is widely held by many Christian denominations. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church and is held by many Lutherans and those in the Reformed tradition.



Specific proponents of Amillennialism include B.B. Warfield, Oswald T. Allis, and more recently this view has been defended by Anthony A. Hoekema and Robert B. Strimple.

So we should not only, NOT, cherry pick but it should also be stopped such disinformation as the above so as to make the other seem more palatable.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
An anathema from you, Paul, is assuring. Out of curiosity, what passages of Scripture can you point to as your basis for anathematizing my view:
1. That Christ's coming physically is a cardinal doctrine, and
2. That you are justified in anathematizing disbelievers in this view of yours?

Well, how about that the Messiah will set his foot back upon the Mount of Olives at his return to earth?
That he will reign out from Jerusale, with 12 Apostles, as to fulfill literaslly promise to have a King always setting upon throne in Isreal?
That he will be on earth judging nations, ruling over entire Earth, until at 'end" when new heavens and a new earth is made?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Amillennialists believe in a literal millennium. It's just not a 1,000 yr reign on earth. We should be honest about the various positions and not cherry pick quotes that give us warm fuzzies.

Anyone who knows amillennialism knows they believe in a literal millennium and a literal return of Christ, as well as a literal tribulation. It just goes to show you that people don't know their theology when they say otherwise, and that should come as no surprise in our theology-allergic church of today.

Believe that they believe in a "spiritual" kingdom upon Earth, thru the Church, and that this age started when Christ ascended back to Father..

This present age is when "Satan" is bound, in the sense that Gospel will be preached to all nations/peoples, and than the end will come...

Jesus will physically return, Great Throne Judgement then occurs, and new heavens and new earth happens..

basically, by passes the literally millennium upon the earth, its a "spritual reign/rule of Christ" and by passes any literally fulfillment of OT prophecies, as basically ALL that left now is Jesus to return Great White Throan Judgement, and than new heavens and earth...

Dont think believe in a great tribulation, more like "general" until Second Coming, and no Millenium as in a physical Kingdom set up upon earth, just a Second Coming and New heavens/earth than..
 

TomVols

New Member
Nothing people have said about Amil proves that they do not believe in a literal return nor a literal millennium. Just not in the sense that dispys or Hist premils do.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Nothing people have said about Amil proves that they do not believe in a literal return nor a literal millennium. Just not in the sense that dispys or Hist premils do.

they believe in a Millenium, but NOT a physical one upon earth, not a time where jesus reigns directly upon the earth, no "Golden Age" on earth...

No time on earth where all wars cease, no more famines, diseases, etc...

they do not beleive in THAT type of a Millenium...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Allan

Active Member
Nothing people have said about Amil proves that they do not believe in a literal return nor a literal millennium. Just not in the sense that dispys or Hist premils do.
As I noted just a few posts previous by a reformed author from cite - Theological Studies:
Amillennialism is a theological view concerning the 1000-year reign of Jesus Christ that is mentioned in Revelation 20:1–6. In particular, Amillennialism is the perspective that there will not be a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ upon the earth. The inseparable Latin prefix a means “no” and the term “millennium” is Latin for “1000 years.” Thus, Amillennialism literally means “no 1000 years.”
The very term 'amillennium' means they do not believe in a 'literal' millennium.

Amillenniumism however DOES hold to a Millennial view, just not a literal one but a figurative one. Thus it holds to a long period of time not 1000 year or Millennium.
 
Top