Do Sinners go to hell due to rejection of Christ/Or Their Sin Natures?

[Iconoclast]

This is the fallacy of setting up a "false dichotomy." Its also called the "either-or fallacy" and it involves a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are other options.

Your two alternatives are:
Christ died for all either means:

1) He died for every individual, which means all would be saved (universalism): or as you put it, "that would mean that the ungodly world was now "living for Christ."

or

2) He died only for the elect

The problem is that there are other options:

3) He died for believers (this view would say that Christ foreknows who will believe and thus only died for them)

4) He died provisionally for everyone (provisional atonement - which is my view): This view is just like it sounds and I've expounded on it numerously in other posts (I can direct you to them if needed or desired)

But what do the means of "persuasion" such as "envy" (Rm 11:14) and signs and wonders accomplish that the effectual calling does not?

They are all means God employs..in those who are effectually called to bring them to salvation. The cross was not provisional but definate and actual.

You did not respond to what i posted about Pauls appeal as it relates to this passage...we are ambassadors for Christ

 

[Skandelon]

They are all means God employs..in those who are effectually called to bring them to salvation.

I know he employes them. I asked what do they accomplish that the inward effectual working of the HS (some call it regeneration) doesn't accomplish?

The cross was not provisional but definate and actual.

Again a false dichotomy. As if something that is provided for all can't also be definite and actual.

You did not respond to what i posted about Pauls appeal as it relates to this passage...we are ambassadors for Christ

That is because it was based upon the premise imposed by your false dichotomy, to which I did respond.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

More scriptural truth for your consideration...

And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Indeed, when Gentiles [non-Jews], who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness

Any historian, Iconoclast, will tell you that there have been many nations and tribes who began, proliferated, and then died out without ever hearing the gosple message.

And yet God says that that some of them are in heaven. (Every tribe, and every nation)

How did they get there, Iconoclast? They never heard the gosple, yet some of them are in heaven.

They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously. They did indeed recieve Light. And God considered their faith in the revelation they recieved to be acceptable.

God does indeed

...give light, to every man that comes into the world.

It is a lie that millions are in hell for not recieving truth...that they never heard.

 

[quantumfaith]

Iconoclast...

More scriptural truth for your consideration...








Any historian, Iconoclast, will tell you that there have been many nations and tribes who began, proliferated, and then died out without ever hearing the gosple message.

And yet God says that that some of them are in heaven. (Every tribe, and every nation)

How did they get there, Iconoclast? They never heard the gosple, yet some of them are in heaven.

They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously.

God does indeed

It is a lie that millions are in hell for not recieving truth...that they never heard.


I so agree that this is false. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[savedbymercy]

rb

It is through faith alone that we are justified before an all holy God.

What about the blood alone that one is Justified before God ?

Rom 5:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Do you anything about Faith in this verse ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

More scriptural truth for your consideration...








Any historian, Iconoclast, will tell you that there have been many nations and tribes who began, proliferated, and then died out without ever hearing the gosple message.

And yet God says that that some of them are in heaven. (Every tribe, and every nation)

How did they get there, Iconoclast? They never heard the gosple, yet some of them are in heaven.

They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously. They did indeed recieve Light. And God considered their faith in the revelation they recieved to be acceptable.

God does indeed

It is a lie that millions are in hell for not recieving truth...that they never heard.

Quantum,

This verse does not help you.The gospel goes worldwide before the last day so there is no problem in that their will be people from all over.every tribe kindred and nation
It is not a lie that millions are in hell, and as a matter of fact, they are waiting for millions to follow..
Saints in heaven rejoice in the righteous judgement of God in rev19:1-19
Can you rejoice in this,and sing praise for God,either in salvation or damnnation...

How did they get there, Iconoclast? They never heard the gosple, yet some of them are in heaven.

All in heaven get there by Gods grace, God has His elect all throughout the world jn 11:50-52. Election does not bother you does it , quantum
Does Gods wrath bother you? Does your "theology" allow for both, to the praise of God's glory?

They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously. They did indeed recieve Light. And God considered their faith in the revelation they recieved to be acceptable[/QUOTE]

This is a complete falsehood ,and mis-understanding of those good verses you posted. This does not happen..as it would render the cross unnecessary .

Did the people who perished in Noahs day, get a seperate message, or did they perish justly?

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,

This verse does not help you.The gospel goes worldwide before the last day so there is no problem in that their will be people from all over.every tribe kindred and nation
It is not a lie that millions are in hell, and as a matter of fact, they are waiting for millions to follow..
Saints in heaven rejoice in the righteous judgement of God in rev19:1-19
Can you rejoice in this,and sing praise for God,either in salvation or damnnation...

All in heaven get there by Gods grace, God has His elect all throughout the world jn 11:50-52. Election does not bother you does it , quantum
Does Gods wrath bother you? Does your "theology" allow for both, to the praise of God's glory?

They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously. They did indeed recieve Light. And God considered their faith in the revelation they recieved to be acceptable[/QUOTE]

This is a complete falsehood ,and mis-understanding of those good verses you posted. This does not happen..as it would render the cross unnecessary .

Did the people who perished in Noahs day, get a seperate message, or did they perish justly?

First of all, I am not looking for help. I am totally confident and comfortable in my Non-Cal theology.

Second, I do agree that "anything and everything" is by the grace of God. I do believe in election, but not in the way that you do. As for those in the days of Noah, there was no gospel message but there was the offer to know and be obedient to the one true God. I have no issues with the wrath of God either.

 

[jbh28]

You say,

Jesus said, "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

No offense, but I'll go with what Jesus said.

No offense, but I'll not take passages out of context. Jesus was speaking about what he was doing RIGHT THEN. Jesus also stated he didn't come to condemn the world, but people will be condemned. I already quoted Revelations which stated exactly what I said.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Hmmm...

Iconoclast....

Do you realise that you are reading my post..(Alive in Christ :wavey but calling me Quantumfaith?

:tongue3::laugh:

AiC

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

This verse does not help you.The gospel goes worldwide before the last day so there is no problem in that their will be people from all over.every tribe kindred and nation

But it is an undeniable fact that many of those ones never heard the Gosple of Jesus Christ, and yet they are now in heaven.

You have consistently said that the gosple must be heard and recieved, and if they never heard it..too bad. They are not one of the "elect", and hell is their doom.

But these scriptures make clear that many who never heard the Gosple, obviously heeded some form of "Light" given by Christ (the Light of the world) and were accepted by God just as those who recieved Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Quantumfaith....


Back at ya!...

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[Skandelon]

No offense, but I'll not take passages out of context.

Can you show where in the context of John 12 it contradicts the clear meaning of what Jesus says in this verse regarding what will be judging men on that final day.

Jesus also stated he didn't come to condemn the world, but people will be condemned. I already quoted Revelations which stated exactly what I said.

I don't dispute that people will be condemned. The question is, "What will condemn them. What are they judged for?"

You say they are "judged for their works/sins," while Jesus says, "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Along with the many other verses I've provided I see no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Fred's Wife]

Can you show where in the context of John 12 it contradicts the clear meaning of what Jesus says in this verse regarding what will be judging men on that final day.


I don't dispute that people will be condemned. The question is, "What will condemn them. What are they judged for?"

You say they are "judged for their works/sins," while Jesus says, "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Along with the many other verses I've provided I see no reason to believe otherwise.

I agree...

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast....

Do you realise that you are reading my post..(Alive in Christ :wavey but calling me Quantumfaith?

:tongue3::laugh:

AiC

Quantum quoted you in his post, so I got confused somewhere along the line:smilewinkgrin:

But it is an undeniable fact that many of those ones never heard the Gosple of Jesus Christ, and yet they are now in heaven.

if any of these "lost tribes" are in heaven.....you or I do not know if God in mercy has elected infants who die in infancy, or mentally handicapped persons, or whatever he has in mind for them.
I or you do not know the geneology of these tribes ,so it is speculation not certainty that any of them are in heaven.
There is no indication in scripture for you to claim it is an undeniable fact....citing secular historians.
There is not any other way into heaven. Those who died before the flood are not there.
This line of arguement is false anyway you cut it.

You have consistently said that the gosple must be heard and recieved, and if they never heard it..too bad. They are not one of the "elect", and hell is their doom.

I have never said too bad. I have pointed that out to you before.

If anyone is not elect...they will be in Hell justly for their sins.
Only those elected by God will be in Heaven.
You put the word elect in quotes....as if it is a dirty word, or as if you would make light of it. AIC....if you struggle mightly with ELECTION...it could be you have a very flawed theology, don't you think?

You do not want to be found denying such a clear biblical truth do you?

Answer your own question.....what happens to the non-elect?
Your jn1:9 verse does not cut it....
This is completely false and unbiblical..sorry...you cannot support this wrong idea biblically

They got there by faith, in the only revelation they had, wich I posted previously. They did indeed recieve Light. And God considered their faith in the revelation they recieved to be acceptable.

I do not think anyone believes this.

 

[jbh28]

Can you show where in the context of John 12 it contradicts the clear meaning of what Jesus says in this verse regarding what will be judging men on that final day.

Jesus didn't come to judge them at that time, but there will be a judgment later(vs 48). If one rejects the words of Jesus, he will be judged on the last day. John 12:48 "The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."

I don't dispute that people will be condemned. The question is, "What will condemn them. What are they judged for?"

I don't think you got the point.

You say they are "judged for their works/sins," while Jesus says, "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Along with the many other verses I've provided I see no reason to believe otherwise.

Jesus was talking about the current time. He came not to judge but to save. Revelation is very clear that at the Great White throne, people will judged for their works. Unbelievers will have sins. Believers will be covered by the blood of Christ. Jesus said he came not to judge, nothing about there never being a judgment of sins.
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." Those people who's name isn't written in the Lambs book of life will be judged according to what they have done. They won't have their sins blotted out by the blood of Christ. They won't be presented blameless (Jude 1:25) as those that are saved will be.

 

[Iconoclast]

Quantum,

First of all, I am not looking for help. I am totally confident and comfortable in my Non-Cal theology.

Second, I do agree that "anything and everything" is by the grace of God. I do believe in election, but not in the way that you do. As for those in the days of Noah, there was no gospel message but there was the offer to know and be obedient to the one true God. I have no issues with the wrath of God either.

It is good there is some agreement,
then you say this;

. I do believe in election, but not in the way that you do.

Ok, what do you believe about it? How is it different?

 

[Iconoclast]

skan,

The problem is that there are other options:

3) He died for believers (this view would say that Christ foreknows who will believe and thus only died for them)

4) He died provisionally for everyone (provisional atonement - which is my view): This view is just like it sounds and I've expounded on it numerously in other posts (I can direct you to them if needed or desired)


Quote:
You are seeing part of it[we are to plead with sinners, yes, because God ordains the means as well as the end}

But what do the means of "persuasion" such as "envy" (Rm 11:14) and signs and wonders accomplish that the effectual calling does not?
__________________

View three is not valid, it is fatalism.
view 4 is really not scriptural, Jesus said He finished the work given to Him on behalf of those given by the Father.....it is exact,particular , complete , and definate.....not at all provisional, and synergistic.

But what do the means of "persuasion" such as "envy" (Rm 11:14) and signs and wonders accomplish that the effectual calling does not?

I think the answer here would be it leaves them even more responsible having received greater light. The scripture speaks of those who wonder and perish. The same means which are made effectual by the Spirit,are also death to others ;

14Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

 

[quantumfaith]

Quantum,


It is good there is some agreement,
then you say this;


Ok, what do you believe about it? How is it different?

My guess is that you are familiar with Jack Cottrell. This is my view of election. If you are not familiar with him here are some links.

http://arminiantoday.blogspot.com/2011/01/election-calvinism-and-bible-part-one.html

 

[Skandelon]

Jesus didn't come to judge them at that time, but there will be a judgment later(vs 48).

We agree on this point.

If one rejects the words of Jesus, he will be judged on the last day. John 12:48 "The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."

Right, and what were those words? Were they words of condemnation for sin? No, he didn't come to bring condemnation. The Law does that. The words of Jesus were words of reconciliation with God. It is the rejection of him and this words that will condemn them, not their breaking of the law. Jesus fulfilled the law and removed the curse of sin and death once and for all.

Revelation is very clear that at the Great White throne, people will judged for their works. Unbelievers will have sins. Believers will be covered by the blood of Christ

Notice the qualification of what separates the two. Believers and unbelievers. Not sinners and nonsinners. Thus, they are judged/condemned for their rejection of the truth (unbelief. Point made.

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done." Those people who's name isn't written in the Lambs book of life will be judged according to what they have done. They won't have their sins blotted out by the blood of Christ. They won't be presented blameless (Jude 1:25) as those that are saved will be.

I think Fred's wife's rebuttal of this view is worthy of repost:

Originally Posted by Fred's Wife
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

According to Revelation 20:12-13, every lost person is judged according to their works not their sin. All sin was judged at the cross. Therefore, all those who end up in hell will go there with their sins already paid for. It is the rejection of Christ which sends a person to hell.

Even the saved are judge and rewarded for their works and given a crown as reward...

Plus, you haven't addressed all the other passages which clearly show that they are condemned because they didn't believe.

 

[Skandelon]

skan,

View three is not valid, it is fatalism.

I don't want to put myself in the place of defending a view I don't hold to, but I'm not sure how you can make that claim of this view while avoiding it for your own.

view 4 is really not scriptural, Jesus said He finished the work given to Him on behalf of those given by the Father.....it is exact,particular , complete , and definate.....not at all provisional, and synergistic.

We agree that he finished the work given to Him, that it is exact, complete and definite, because those descriptions are not unique to your view. There is no passage that supports the idea that Christ only died for a select few, which is why even many Calvinists question and debate against this view. Many even question if Calvin himself held to this view. Why? Because there is so little support for it and even the support that is used is vague and unsupported by other passages. I could list all the verses, but I suppose you are very familiar with them but have chosen to interpret them in support of your position.

I think the answer here would be it leaves them even more responsible having received greater light

Please explain how persuasive means leave a totally dead, depraved reprobate "more responsible" when he is born completely devoid of responding to light according to your view? That would be like saying: There blind guy over there who can't see because he was born blind, but I'm going to shine a brighter light right in his eyes to make sure he is responsible for his blindness. It just seems absurd to me. Can you explain it?