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Do Sinners go to hell due to rejection of Christ/Or Their Sin Natures?

Winman

Active Member
Then just answer the question. you attempt to make everything into a Calvinist thread instead of just discussing the topic.

Now, you are correct that both believers and unbelievers are sinners. What i stated was that sin is the primary reason people go to hell. The secondary reason is their rejection of Christ. So when they stand at the Great White Throne Judgment and what they have done is judged, they will be condemned because of their sin. A believer will have the blood of Christ covering their sins and will be presented faultless before God. So we will be justified and be able to be with God in heaven. The unbeliever will have to go to hell because of his sins and rejection of the Savior.

The answer is different according to your theology. It is the truth if Calvinism is true, then only God determines who goes to hell.

And unbelief is not secondary, it is primary, Jesus said if you believe not I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Whether you believe or not determines the effect your sin will have upon you.
 

jbh28

Active Member
[off topic]

And unbelief is not secondary, it is primary, Jesus said if you believe not I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
It can't be primary. Sin is the reason why anybody would ever go to hell. Without Christ, all would go to hell. That's the primary reason.

My example I gave earlier.

If I have a ticket to pay, the primary reason is because of what I did wrong. If you offer to pay my ticket and I refuse, that doesn't negate the fact that the reason I have to pay the ticket is because I did something wrong.

Whether you believe or not determines the effect your sin will have upon you.
Yes. That's the difference. It just doesn't negate the primary reason hell is even in the picture.
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
If Calvinism is true, then people do not go to hell because of sin or unbelief, they go to hell because God chose to pass them by.

You can try to explain this away, but this is the logical conclusion of Calvinism.

If God has elected a person before the foundation of the world, then that person will be regenerated by God and irresistably believe in Christ and will have their sins forgiven and go to heaven.

If God has passed over a person, this person is dead before they even commit sin and cannot possibly be forgiven for this original sin or any actual sins they commit later and will go to hell.

If we have no control over whether we can believe or not, and if we are born dead in sin, not because of anything we have done, but because God caused us to inherit Adam's sin, then the only one who determines whether we go to heaven or hell is God himself.

Agree completely
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AIC,
you posted this;
Quote:
In theological debate, both Calvinism and Arminianism have their longstanding traditions and arguments. Both systems attempt to make sense of Biblical passages and reconcile them to the whole. But the strength of Calvinism relies on another factor outside of the Bible which is valued as much, if not more than the Bible, i.e., unassailable logic.

In their system of theology, one doctrine builds upon the other with perfect consistency with the whole.
{yes ...this is why you will see calvinists say there is not really a 3 or 4 pt calvinist....they just have not understood the other points yet}

I actually admire the consistency of the Calvinistic system, and can see how this peerless system could be so appealing to so many, especially those with an analytical mind.
{you would think he was ready to really dig into the verses then and grasp it}

My objections to Calvinism are not based upon any flaw that I see in their logic, but with the Biblical basis used to develop their conclusions,

{Lets see if he makes a biblical case....or...an emotional one}


and their willingness to dismiss passages that seem to be too difficult to reconcile to their system.

{ This is not true. Just search monergism .com or any solid reformed site,and they will be more than willing to look at any verse...so this writer is starting to look suspect here!}

The approach to arguing for Calvinism has been almost as predictable and consistent as their theological system. If one challenges one of the five points of Calvinism, and they are unable to convince someone of the validity of that point by using Scripture, then they appeal to the theological point above or below the one they are arguing for as a "proof" of the logic of their conclusions.

{Well....does not look like he is trying to look to make a scriptural case, he has indicated he sees a logical consistency in the teaching, so why does he quibble with the cal showing how the points are inter-related...but it is early,in this article. maybe he will bring the scriptural case soon.}

"If you are predestined, you cannot lose your salvation."
{here he jumps in with a random statement and starts to mis-represent the teaching ...right away! what a surprise! What does he say;
If you are predestined......
The teaching is....WHOM ..he did....FOREKNOW...He also did predestinate to be conformed to the Image of the Son.
The Elective decree of God is first- whom God did foreknow,whom God set His love upon, These ones He did predestinate! to be conformed... if the writer had any real understanding of this fact alone,this issue of someone "losing" salvation would not even be an issue}

{If you go back over most of the cal/arm threads...you will see all the calvinists constantly saying.....you have a wrong view of foreknowledge, over and over again.....that is because it is almost always misunderstood.}



While this method is extremely effective in convincing the simple thinker, it is nothing more than the use of circular logic, i.e., using part of a theory as proof of that theory.
{This is useless argumentation,distracting from the real issues on the table,still waiting for his scriptural case}

One thing that I find most amazing is the way that Calvinism approaches some difficulties.

{ If he read good material , he would have answers to these objections already}


For example: If God limits the atonement to the elect,

{The Atonement, is definate,and particular, for a multitude given to Christ}

and those that are "chosen" are not selected by anything within themselves, for God is no respecter of persons;

This is correct:godisgood:

then what happens to babies that die?

{ A good question....All persons conceived in the womb are dead in Adam,guilty in Adam.....If God saves any of them,some of them, all of them, it would be because in His infinate wisdom,He has determined to do so...not because they are infants, but because the God of all the earth will do right!
Gen18:25
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right}
He will have mercy upon who he will....

Does the confession of faith answer this question....yes it does;
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
This is a perfect answer as it leaves the fate of such persons in God's control!
I do not think you could word this answer any clearer, or wiser. God will do what is right....I would say amen....lets see what our writer does next??

Well, based upon their theory, they are either elect or they are not.

{Based upon scripture...all persons are elect, or not...if the writer was trying to make a scriptural case...he should start now...but lets see???}

God cannot base His election on their infancy since that would make Him a respecter of persons. So, the God of "love" chooses to torment little babies for eternity in a fiery hell!
{ no scripture again.....but an emotionally twisted,warped idea that the writer tries to leave on the calvinist doorstep. This disturbed comment has so many errors in it , It is hard to know what to address first}

If God is the "cause" of "everything" then is He not the "cause" of sin? Doesn't He have to "will' sin for it to exist? Wouldn't that make God evil?
{ This is a wicked ungodly thought...to suggest that God is the author of sin,
This indicates a disturbed thought process...the scripture is so clear that In Him is no darkness at all...the author needs to repent of this ungodly thought process....and study on God , before he can even consider looking at theology, which has eluded his grasp}

Here if the author was not so busy developing an absurd strawman..he could have read this instead and learned something;
After reading his last set of remarks I feel I must take a shower soon, to cleanse myself from those defiling comments.
Here is something more edifying from the 1689-
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/QUOTE]





These are quoted as if they were an answer to any difficult question that faces their theory. When their theory makes God out to be a puppeteer, a baby torturer, or the author of sin,

These ignorant comments show the author is void of understanding what he is trying to speak of. He never offers a scripture at all....because he cannot answer what is offered in the confession..pathetic


these verses are quoted as their refuge. If we believe that Calvinism makes God unjust, then we just "do not understand God," for "His ways are not our ways!" This my friends is not an answer, but an evasion. To the Calvinist, "God's ways are not our ways" seems to cover manifold Biblical and theological inconsistencies which they refuse to deal with. We however, should not base truth upon their conscience, but upon the Scriptures!

If one disagrees with their "explanation," then these verses are spouted with an air of finality. In essence, they are saying that we are wrong in using human reasoning

{as if his absurdities make any sense....human reasoning....no thanks friend, we will stick with the scriptures}


, and we should yield to their theological absurdities as the mind of God! Anything that does not make sense can easily be dismissed as an "unfathomable mystery" which excuses all contradictions in the Scripture and the character of God. The appeal to mystery seems to be a Biblical answer, but it is not! It is not an answer at all! It is an evasion of the Bible and sound logic. If we cannot "know" God by what the Scriptures say about Him because His ways are greater than ours, then how can we be arrogant enough to say that we can accurately comprehend God and His plans at all? This is equally true for the dogmatic Calvinist. By choosing to believe Calvinism instead of believing the Biblical idea of God, they choose a "mystery" that makes God out to be a monster that the Bible never says that He is!

Sorry to say...this author uses no scripture..is weighed in the balances, and found wanting:(
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank you for being gracious here.

Quantum,
Just started looking at the site offered....here is one portion that I have found some partial agreement on...
Third, the language of election is sometimes used in the Bible not for individuals as such but for groups, usually the nation of Israel. In this case, again, the election in view is to service and not to salvation. See Deut. 7:6; 14:2; 1 Chron. 16:13; Acts 13:17. This nation was chosen specifically to prepare the way for the coming Messiah. This corporate election for service had no necessary connection with the salvation of any particular Israelite. This is Paul’s main point in Romans 9—a point which is usually missed completely by Calvinists. In this section of Romans Paul is defending God’s sovereign right to unconditionally choose either individuals (such as Pharaoh) or groups (such as Israel) for roles of service without being bound to guarantee their salvation.

In a similar way the language of election is also used of God’s new elect body, the new Israel, the church. While not strictly parallel to OT Israel, in this age the church as a body is now God’s chosen people (1 Peter 2:9); and this election is in part an election to service. When Peter here describes the church as a “chosen race,” he adds this purpose for the choosing: “that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” Thus in terms of service, whereas Israel was elected for preparation, the church is elected for proclamation.

There is both types of election...Individual, and corporate ...yes
But This is by God's design....as the nation{OT Israel} was meant to serve as a type of the servant of God ...but failed for the most part.

Quantum....this is key.....
22And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Ot Israel failed to do this .....Jesus as Gods elect servant..does not fail as the Servant of The Lord...in Isa42-53..... He is the New Israel and us in Him!

so when Paul uses the national election in Romans 9-11 he is using the failed type of the physical nation... to point out the New Israel [spiritual nation} does not fail,

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The election of grace, and the wild olive branches {gentiles} are formed now into One new man In Christ..... We carry out what the old Israel failed to do, because God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure...That is why we are individually elected, then built up together a spiritual habitation of God.

I will read more now.. but this jumped right out at me.

To His credit..the author does give some calvinist sources that are solid, curt daniel,for example..so i will continue to read through it!
He then states his positons...I am not sure that he speaks for all arminians, as i would not speak for all reformed baptists, or all calvinists.. I will reserve further comment until I can give it a careful read.
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've never seen or heard fatalism described in this manner. Can you point me to any scholar or resource which teaches this view?

Being that you post from texas I thought you might go for the cowboy example.....
another example from cowboy movies would be the two great theologians Paul Newman ...and Richard Boone...in the classic western HOMBRE...

In one of the final scenes...Paul Newman....playing a politically correct,yet alienated,existential, half breed , loner.....goes down the hill to shoot up the bad guys.....richard boone...the head bad guy asks Paul Newman, what do you think hell is going to look like? Newman replies...we all die sometime, its just a question of when........there it is ...FATALISM....forced into the key scene....Paul Newman is the epitome of alienated man,yet virtuous despite no apparent bible beliefs.....succumbs to blind chance, fate....not a personal God who has given him an appointed day of death.
 

Winman

Active Member
It can't be primary. Sin is the reason why anybody would ever go to hell. Without Christ, all would go to hell. That's the primary reason.

My example I gave earlier.

If I have a ticket to pay, the primary reason is because of what I did wrong. If you offer to pay my ticket and I refuse, that doesn't negate the fact that the reason I have to pay the ticket is because I did something wrong.

Yes. That's the difference. It just doesn't negate the primary reason hell is even in the picture.

If original sin is true, you don't have to do anything to get that ticket. Romans 9:11 says Esau and Jacob had done neither good or evil when they were in their mother's womb.

So, what you DO has nothing to do with it, you are born a sinner.

If original sin is true, people go to hell simply because they exist.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Being that you post from texas I thought you might go for the cowboy example.....
another example from cowboy movies would be the two great theologians Paul Newman ...and Richard Boone...in the classic western HOMBRE...

In one of the final scenes...Paul Newman....playing a politically correct,yet alienated,existential, half breed , loner.....goes down the hill to shoot up the bad guys.....richard boone...the head bad guy asks Paul Newman, what do you think hell is going to look like? Newman replies...we all die sometime, its just a question of when........there it is ...FATALISM....forced into the key scene....Paul Newman is the epitome of alienated man,yet virtuous despite no apparent bible beliefs.....succumbs to blind chance, fate....not a personal God who has given him an appointed day of death.
While I appreciate the western analogy... I really do....very entertaining; I really was looking for any scholar who defines "fatalism" in the way that you have here.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If original sin is true, you don't have to do anything to get that ticket. Romans 9:11 says Esau and Jacob had done neither good or evil when they were in their mother's womb.

So, what you DO has nothing to do with it, you are born a sinner.

If original sin is true, people go to hell simply because they exist.

Not in this life. So do you think its possible for them to redeem themselves?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Correct, but that doesn't mean their sin wasn't paid for, because it was. This is why we should be in agreement. The difference is that you don't believe that Christ atoned for the sins of the world world, taking away the curse of the law, appeasing the wrath of God once and for all. You think it takes Christ AND Hell to appease God's wrath, you believe the cross didn't take care of the whole curse of the law, which is biblically unfounded. The reason some go to hell is because the refused to accept the truth as the scriptures, I presented and which have gone virtually untouched, clearly teach.

I am a calvinist who DOES believe that Jesus was the propiation for the entire World, that his death was a substutionary death, to atone for all potentially, BUT only is effectual to tjhose who will believe on Him...

Where we differ is that I see it that UNLESS God intiates to me the grace to repent and believe, can hear the Gospel, but not able to respond in faith unless God quickens me.allows me to see and believe...

Jesus death paid penalty owed IN FULL to God, but unless one receives the pardon, it is not effectual, and only those he has chosen/elected will be able to receive it...

far as I know, regardless if you are either a Cal/Arm, would believe that jesus paid sin debt in full owed to God at the Cross

so ONLY reason works would enetr in would be at judgement before Christ for believers, get rewarded for good works done
Great White Throne for unbelievers will be judged and assigned punishment based upon deeds/works
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I am a calvinist who DOES believe that Jesus was the propiation for the entire World, that his death was a substutionary death, to atone for all potentially, BUT only is effectual to tjhose who will believe on Him...

Where we differ is that I see it that UNLESS God intiates to me the grace to repent and believe, can hear the Gospel, but not able to respond in faith unless God quickens me.allows me to see and believe...
As Allan explained in the other thread, even Arminians historically supported this view through their view of "Prevenient Grace."

Can you point me to the passages which teach that the gospel isn't sufficient to enable a response? Because I can point to many which speak of the power, effectiveness and life-giving abilities of the gospel itself. The gospel IS wrought by the HS and thus IS a work of the HS in and of itself, so to suggest it is powerless unless preceded by some extra internal working of the HS seems redundant and completely unnecessary unless the scripture clearly teaches that concept, which I don't find any support for.

Jesus death paid penalty oweed IN FULL to God, but unless one receives the pardon, it is not effectual, and only those he has chosen/elected will be able to receive it...
But don't you still affirm the concept of the effectual call/irresistible grace? If so, what difference does the idea of limited vs universal atonement really matter?
 

jbh28

Active Member
If original sin is true, you don't have to do anything to get that ticket. Romans 9:11 says Esau and Jacob had done neither good or evil when they were in their mother's womb.

So, what you DO has nothing to do with it, you are born a sinner.

If original sin is true, people go to hell simply because they exist.

I guess you can't discuss a topic. I was hoping to see your reply to my post, but I guess you can't do that.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
As Allan explained in the other thread, even Arminians historically supported this view through their view of "Prevenient Grace."

Agree, main disagreement would be that Arms see it has God providing means for all to potentially be able to respond in faith to Gospel, Cals see it as being only those who have been elected out as able to repond in faith...

Can you point me to the passages which teach that the gospel isn't sufficient to enable a response? Because I can point to many which speak of the power, effectiveness and life-giving abilities of the gospel itself. The gospel IS wrought by the HS and thus IS a work of the HS in and of itself, so to suggest it is powerless unless preceded by some extra internal working of the HS seems redundant and completely unnecessary unless the scripture clearly teaches that concept, which I don't find any support for.

I tend to see the Gospel as THE agent chosen by God to save those he has foreknown and elected out in Christ...
faith DOES indded come from hearing, by the word of God, its just that regeneration by the Lord AND saving faith happens to me at same time, so God quickens, person now able to exercise saving fath in Chrst...

Think cals see election on Individual basis by the Lord. Arms more that God gives "enough" grace to save all who wills, Cals say Unless God wills it, you can't will it...

its like left to ourselves, will excercise 'free will" but since depraived/corrupted sin natures, will chose to deny Christ, and stay in darkness

But don't you still affirm the concept of the effectual call/irresistible grace? If so, what difference does the idea of limited vs universal atonement really matter?
it means that God does love all in the sense he created all of us in his image, and did supply a sacrifice for all, But he loves his Covenant people with "specific" love...

be like I love my friends and , but love my wife and kids even more so, as they are my "blood" family
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I tend to see the Gospel as THE agent chosen by God to save those he has foreknown and elected out in Christ...
So, you don't believe the gospel is a genuine appeal for all ["every creature"] to come to faith and repentance?

Think cals see election on Individual basis by the Lord. Arms more that God gives "enough" grace to save all who wills, Cals say Unless God wills it, you can't will it...

But the reason I side with the Arms is because of the culpability issues (not to mention the biblical evidence). Let me lay out the difference here:

CALVINISM'S MODEL:
1. God gives grace prior to any positive response and this grace is not resistible.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond positively.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people sin, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and also brings to fruition the sin he hates.

Compare that to Arminianism which allows God's grace to be resisted:

ARMININISM'S MODEL
1. God gives grace prior to any human response.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people respond negatively, they jump off of the higher place God had lifted them to.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and people do the sinning.

Thus, in the Arminian model God gets the glory for lifting men to a higher plane to be able to make the right choice and men get the blame for resisting and jumping off into sin. Whereas, the Calvinistic model does give credit to God for the lifting but also leaves God to blame for those who sin because he never gives them what is needed to respond (that would include the choice of Adam to sin or resist...was he given the grace to resist the temptation or not?) (The two models are taken from Eric Landstrom's article)
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So, you don't believe the gospel is a genuine appeal for all ["every creature"] to come to faith and repentance?



But the reason I side with the Arms is because of the culpability issues (not to mention the biblical evidence). Let me lay out the difference here:

CALVINISM'S MODEL:
1. God gives grace prior to any positive response and this grace is not resistible.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond positively.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people sin, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and also brings to fruition the sin he hates.

Compare that to Arminianism which allows God's grace to be resisted:

ARMININISM'S MODEL
1. God gives grace prior to any human response.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people respond negatively, they jump off of the higher place God had lifted them to.
5. Hence, God does the lifting and people do the sinning.

Thus, in the Arminian model God gets the glory for lifting men to a higher plane to be able to make the right choice and men get the blame for resisting and jumping off into sin. Whereas, the Calvinistic model does give credit to God for the lifting but also leaves God to blame for those who sin because he never gives them what is needed to respond (that would include the choice of Adam to sin or resist...was he given the grace to resist the temptation or not?) (The two models are taken from Eric Landstrom's article)

I see similarities to Roman Catholicism, in that both Arminians & RC's believe that the will of man is the decisive factor in salvation...interesting.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
So, you don't believe the gospel is a genuine appeal for all ["every creature"] to come to faith and repentance?

"many are called, but few are chosen"...
believe that the Lord commands us to preach His name, as we MUST be saved by that name...
So it it geniune from ny point of view/side, as I do not know who will respond to it and who will not...



But the reason I side with the Arms is because of the culpability issues (not to mention the biblical evidence). Let me lay out the difference here:

CALVINISM'S MODEL:
1. God gives grace prior to any positive response and this grace is not resistible.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond positively.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people sin, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation.

Nope, we sin because we are sinners by nature, and the Lord has imputed to us the Fall that Adam brought to pass...
5. Hence, God does the lifting and also brings to fruition the sin he hates.

I do not believe in double predestination, it seems that you have more of a "hyper-Cal" in mind here...

Compare that to Arminianism which allows God's grace to be resisted:

ARMININISM'S MODEL
1. God gives grace prior to any human response.
2. As such, people are already lifted up higher by grace before they respond.
3. As such, people don't lift themselves up, God does.
4. As such, when people respond negatively, they jump off of the higher place God had lifted them to.
Where does God get the glory here though? IF jesus can be resisted and rejected by whosoever wills...
How can God be sure that His blood actually DID purchase back a group of people unless He causes it to pass?
5. Hence, God does the lifting and people do the sinning.

Thus, in the Arminian model God gets the glory for lifting men to a higher plane to be able to make the right choice and men get the blame for resisting and jumping off into sin. Whereas, the Calvinistic model does give credit to God for the lifting but also leaves God to blame for those who sin because he never gives them what is needed to respond (that would include the choice of Adam to sin or resist...was he given the grace to resist the temptation or not?) (The two models are taken from Eric Landstrom's article)

Adam was PERFECTas to his nature when originally created...
So he also had "true free will" and the choice he made was to exercise it and sin against God, same deal satan got involved in with God

So Adam was given means to ressit as it was a free moral choice, he failed, we all got the curse of that decision , which us to lose our relationship with God, as now having a sin nature..

Again , it seems that your "beef" would be more with those in Cal circles who tend to hold to a "high/hyper" viewpoint, as many of your points are not what I see from Bible itself!
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
2 Corinthians 12: 9 "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Can you explain how you feel that relates to the point, "As such, when people sin, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation?"

I'm not seeing the connection between Paul's aliment not being healed and God's withholding his grace to allow people to resist temptation.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Adam was PERFECTas to his nature when originally created...
If it was perfect, then why did he sin? Jesus' nature was perfect, I think Adams was mutable, right? I mean, that is what you seem to say later when you write...

So he also had "true free will" and the choice he made was to exercise it and sin against God, same deal satan got involved in with God

So Adam was given means to ressit as it was a free moral choice, he failed, we all got the curse of that decision , which us to lose our relationship with God, as now having a sin nature..
I agree with all this, but what about the fall leads you to believe that what Adam did would cause all mankind to become unable to respond to a message of God sent to the entire world appealing for every creature to be reconciled to him?

It just seems backwards to suggest that we can't respond to a message to be reconciled because we are enemies. Isn't that kind of the point of the appeal to be reconciled? It's like a doctor saying, "Hey I got the cure to cancer but you can't receive it because you are too cancerous." It just appears to me that Calvs take passages which speak of our predicament PRE Cross/gospel/Holy Spirit coming and apply it to our predicament post all these divine provisions. Make sense?

Again , it seems that your "beef" would be more with those in Cal circles who tend to hold to a "high/hyper" viewpoint, as many of your points are not what I see from Bible itself!
While its true I do have a greater "beef" with "high/hyper" Calvinistic viewpoints because they do more injustice to the text than your view; that doesn't translate into my views not being supported by scripture. I've supplied countless texts and explanations supporting my views as have many scholars before me. If there is a specific point you'd like to discuss, please point it out, but generalized sweeping arguments such as this really don't help move the discussion along.

Did you understand the two views I presented and how the Cal view makes God ultimately culpable for man's failing, while the Arm view gives credit to God for the positive response while still making man fully culpable for his own independent failing?
 

jbh28

Active Member
Can you explain how you feel that relates to the point, "As such, when people sin, they sin because God withheld the grace they needed to resist temptation?"

I'm not seeing the connection between Paul's aliment not being healed and God's withholding his grace to allow people to resist temptation.

I would say that it would also apply spiritually. However in context, it is speaking physically.

How we are tempted.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
(James 1:13-15 ESV)

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
(1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV)

In other words, I would disagree with that point.
 
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