Do The Jews Worship God of the Bible Still?

[diffrent123]

No sorry what are the rules please ?

 

[David Kent]

TCassidy, I have posted here for you an accurate description of millennial and dispensational thought before Darby came along. It's taken from George Peter's famous work, The Theocratic Kingdom (Proposition 78):

The early church doctrine was revived after the Reformation.

SEVERAL HUNDRED NAMES, INCLUDING SOME OF THE MOST EMINENT, LEARNED, AND PIOUS IN THE CHURCH, ARE GIVEN IN SUCH WORKS, AS TAYLOR’S VOICE OF THE CHURCH, BROOKS’S EL. PROPH. INTERPRETATION, SEISS’ LAST TIMES, ELLIOTT’S HORAE. APOC., SHIMEALL’S ESCHATOLOGY, COX’S MILLENARIAN’S ANSWER, ANDERSON’S APOLOGY, TIME OF THE END, WEST’S ESSAY ON HIS. OF DOC, AND VARIOUS OTHERS, EMBRACING MANY LIVING AFTER THE REFORMATION, WHO AGAIN REVIVED THE EARLY FAITH OF THE CHURCH IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST STILL FUTURE, AND TO BE SET UP AT THE SECOND ADVENT.
​

Cumming was an historic premillenialist, same as Elliott. Irving may have been at one time but in his Morning Watch magazine, he claimed that he was the first to preach on dispensationalism on Dec 25th 1825 and next time on the same day the follwing year. Of course Irvings prophets enlarged on that and claimed the saints would be translated in 1835.​

 

[David Kent]

Quick question back ...

Did God exist before religion ?

In the beginning God. Genesis 1:1.

 

[TCassidy]

No sorry what are the rules please ?

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[Yeshua1]

I am writing this response to try and educate you. First, as a grafted in branch, you need to tread lightly with your sanctified theological stick with which you are beating us over the head. You are correct regarding the Trinity, but before you come on tobtjis forum and strut your knowledge and boasting you better go do your homework. I think a thorough understanding of the Brit Hachadasha and in particular Romans 11 is in order. You can repeat your self all day about the the Trinity and the Godhead, but your claim that Jews worship a totally different God still doesn't wash. Go study Romans 11 and go back and find every Tanach reference the apostle Sh'ual used to argue his point and then maybe, just maybe the scales of Replacement Theology might fall from your eyes.

Irony is that he does not believe in replacement Theology!

 

[Yeshua1]

If I may make a small correction: Abraham actually did see the Lord Jesus' day (John 8:56); he saw Him with the eyes of faith. It was (most of) the Jews of Christ's day who did not believe in Him, and most Jews today who still do not believe in Him. That is why it is said that only those who believe (whether Jews or Gentiles) are sons of Abraham (Galatians 3:7).

Those who really love the Jews will be praying for them to come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and maybe contributing to missions to Israel. It is not love to tell Jews that they are saved or that they will be saved in unbelief.

There is only one people of God (John 10:16; Ephesians 2:14-18 etc.). This, of course, is not 'Replacement Theology,' but Inclusion Theology, 'That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs of the same body....' (Ephesians 3:6).

Think that there is still a distinction between Church and israel though!

 

[Jope]

Cumming was an historic premillenialist, same as Elliott. Irving may have been at one time but in his Morning Watch magazine, he claimed that he was the first to preach on dispensationalism on Dec 25th 1825 and next time on the same day the follwing year. Of course Irvings prophets enlarged on that and claimed the saints would be translated in 1835.​

So, Jonathan Edwards, 1703 – 1758, was totally off his rocker when he stated "There is, perhaps, no part of divinity attended with so much intricacy, and wherein orthodox divines so much differ [in the past, before the 18th century, before Darby and Irving] as the stating of the precise agreement and difference between the two dispensations of Moses and Christ" (Edward's Works, I, 100)?

Or what about Iranaeus? Maybe he went to the future and talked with Darby or Irving or something and then went back in time in the first century to write the following?

"Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God" (Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. XX, 11).

"Thus were they perfected who knew one and the same God, who from beginning to end was present with mankind in the various dispensations" (Against Heresies, Book III, Ch. XII, 13).

"since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,)..." (Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. XXVIII, 2).

"Therefore the Son of the Father declares [Him] from the beginning, inasmuch as He was with the Father from the beginning, who did also show to the human race prophetic visions, and diversities of gifts, and His own ministrations, and the glory of the Father, in regular order and connection, at the fitting time for the benefit [of mankind]. For where there is a regular succession, there is also fixedness; and where fixedness, there suitability to the period; and where suitability, there also utility. And for this reason did the Word become the dispenser of the paternal grace for the benefit of men, for whom He made such great dispensations, revealing God indeed to men, but presenting man to God, and preserving at the same time the invisibility of the Father, lest man should at any time become a despiser of God, and that he should always possess something towards which he might advance; but, on the other hand, revealing God to men through many dispensations, lest man, failing away from God altogether, should cease to exist. For the glory of God is a living man; and the life of man consists in beholding God. For if the manifestation of God which is made by means of the creation, affords life to all living in the earth, much more does that revelation of the Father which comes through the Word, give life to those who see God" (Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. XX, 7).
​

Both Iranaeus and Justin Martyr believed in a distinction between Israel and the Church. If you don't believe me I'll show you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So, Jonathan Edwards, 1703 – 1758, was totally off his rocker when he stated "There is, perhaps, no part of divinity attended with so much intricacy, and wherein orthodox divines so much differ [in the past, before the 18th century, before Darby and Irving] as the stating of the precise agreement and difference between the two dispensations of Moses and Christ" (Edward's Works, I, 100)?

When Edwards speaks of 'dispensations' he means the Old and New Covenants. Edwards was Postmillennial in his eschatology, as were many of the Puritans. He foresaw the Gospel going out into the world in great power and being victorious before the Return of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

When Edwards speaks of 'dispensations' he means the Old and New Covenants. Edwards was Postmillennial in his eschatology, as were many of the Puritans. He foresaw the Gospel going out into the world in great power and being victorious before the Return of Christ.

Think the prominent reformed position is A mil, Post mil, and some historical premil, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, Jonathan Edwards, 1703 – 1758, was totally off his rocker when he stated "There is, perhaps, no part of divinity attended with so much intricacy, and wherein orthodox divines so much differ [in the past, before the 18th century, before Darby and Irving] as the stating of the precise agreement and difference between the two dispensations of Moses and Christ" (Edward's Works, I, 100)?

Or what about Iranaeus? Maybe he went to the future and talked with Darby or Irving or something and then went back in time in the first century to write the following?

"Thus does the Word of God always preserve the outlines, as it were, of things to come, and points out to men the various forms (species), as it were, of the dispensations of the Father, teaching us the things pertaining to God" (Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. XX, 11).

"Thus were they perfected who knew one and the same God, who from beginning to end was present with mankind in the various dispensations" (Against Heresies, Book III, Ch. XII, 13).

"since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,)..." (Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. XXVIII, 2).

"Therefore the Son of the Father declares [Him] from the beginning, inasmuch as He was with the Father from the beginning, who did also show to the human race prophetic visions, and diversities of gifts, and His own ministrations, and the glory of the Father, in regular order and connection, at the fitting time for the benefit [of mankind]. For where there is a regular succession, there is also fixedness; and where fixedness, there suitability to the period; and where suitability, there also utility. And for this reason did the Word become the dispenser of the paternal grace for the benefit of men, for whom He made such great dispensations, revealing God indeed to men, but presenting man to God, and preserving at the same time the invisibility of the Father, lest man should at any time become a despiser of God, and that he should always possess something towards which he might advance; but, on the other hand, revealing God to men through many dispensations, lest man, failing away from God altogether, should cease to exist. For the glory of God is a living man; and the life of man consists in beholding God. For if the manifestation of God which is made by means of the creation, affords life to all living in the earth, much more does that revelation of the Father which comes through the Word, give life to those who see God" (Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. XX, 7).
​

Both Iranaeus and Justin Martyr believed in a distinction between Israel and the Church. If you don't believe me I'll show you.

They help top a Historical premil view, but no Rature/Premil Dispy view!

 

[Billx]

Paul himself stated the same thing, as the Jews know Yahweh, but refuse to accept Yeshua, so blind to that, but still know real God!

Abraham was saved by his faith. His faith in what? The repository of faith in the post mosaic period was in the meaning of the sacrificial system. They held on to
The teaching of Moses. The entire book of Hebrews is a struggle with giving up Moses and seeing Christ Jesus as a more excellent way. Why the argument? Without Jesus, the Christ they were lost. They did not know what they worshipped because long ago the word of God was lost in the house of God. They held on to Moses and did not know why and consequently knows Yahweh.
Today's Jews moved into a cultural religiosity and a quasi system of works and have lost the bread crumbs along the path. A different God? Abreaham was saved by faith and this is the fly in the ointment to a different God.
Just a thought

 

[Yeshua1]

Abraham was saved by his faith. His faith in what? The repository of faith in the post mosaic period was in the meaning of the sacrificial system. They held on to
The teaching of Moses. The entire book of Hebrews is a struggle with giving up Moses and seeing Christ Jesus as a more excellent way. Why the argument? Without Jesus, the Christ they were lost. They did not know what they worshipped because long ago the word of God was lost in the house of God. They held on to Moses and did not know why and consequently knows Yahweh.
Today's Jews moved into a cultural religiosity and a quasi system of works and have lost the bread crumbs along the path. A different God? Abreaham was saved by faith and this is the fly in the ointment to a different God.
Just a thought

They still lnow of the God of Abraham. but until receiving Yeshua, are blind, just as they were in time of paul!

 

[TCassidy]

A different God? Abreaham was saved by faith and this is the fly in the ointment to a different God.

Actually, it's not. Abraham did not deny the Messiah. Present day Jews do deny the Messiah.

That was made very clear in several earlier posts.

 

[John of Wood Green]

It would be great if the new members who are contributing to this thread would post a short bio on the Introduction forum, so we can get to know them.

We know YOUR bio: Welcome back from the gallows, glad you could join us. Glad also that the revelations you received since you were hanged has led you to become a baptist!

 

[Jope]

When Edwards speaks of 'dispensations' he means the Old and New Covenants. Edwards was Postmillennial in his eschatology, as were many of the Puritans. He foresaw the Gospel going out into the world in great power and being victorious before the Return of Christ.

Before Darby came around, Edwards would have been considered a dispensationalist. That is my point. I know that Edwards was Postmillennial. That's beside the point. What also was my point is that Edwards was by no means a loner in his dispensational beliefs. Read David Kent's post, which is what I responded to.

 

[Jope]

They help top a Historical premil view, but no Rature/Premil Dispy view!

Both Iranaeus and Justin Martyr believed in pretribulationalism.

"Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah" (Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. VII).​

"For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up...." (Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Ch. V, 1).​

Pause. Iranaeus is talking about Enoch's translation being an example of "the translation of the just": I wonder which "just" person or persons he is speaking of? Perhaps he is speaking of Elijah? Maybe the Church? And then he speaks about Elijah. Elijah is the last saint that was translated. Iranaeus seems to think that Elijah's translation is an example for "those who are spiritual": Seems to me that Iranaeus believed in the translation of the church! What's better, is that Iranaeus was pretribulational!

"...the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place [paradise] (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition [2Co_12:4]), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality" (Ibid.).

"Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons 'as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;' (Isa_40:15) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.' (Mat_24:21) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption" (Against Heresies, Book V, Ch. XXIX, 1).​

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

This thread will be closed sometime after 4 AM Pacific.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Before Darby came around, Edwards would have been considered a dispensationalist. That is my point.

Well it's completely and utterly wrong. That's my point.
Someone else with more knowledge of the Fathers will point out your errors concerning Irenaeus and Justin Martyr. My area of expertise is on the Puritans and you are entirely mistaken. Many Puritans certainly looked forward to a revival among the Jews, and many Reformed folk do today. Cromwell invited them back to England (after they had been expelled in the Middle Ages) with a view to facilitating their conversion. But they were all perfectly clear that if the Jews were going to be saved, it would be before the Return of Christ.

 

[Jope]

Well it's completely and utterly wrong. That's my point.
Someone else with more knowledge of the Fathers will point out your errors concerning Irenaeus and Justin Martyr. My area of expertise is on the Puritans and you are entirely mistaken. Many Puritans certainly looked forward to a revival among the Jews, and many Reformed folk do today. Cromwell invited them back to England (after they had been expelled in the Middle Ages) with a view to facilitating their conversion. But they were all perfectly clear that if the Jews were going to be saved, it would be before the Return of Christ.

?????? Nice straw man. No, I'm not mistaken. I never argued that puritans or reformed folk didn't look for a revival among the Jews. Quit putting words into my mouth. I have taught in this forum that Augustine, who was amillennial, looked for salvation among the Jews. Also, Edwards CLEARLY WAS A DISPENSATIONALIST. Get that through your thick skull. Quit looking at periods of history through 21st century definitions and perspectives. A dispensationalist today is different from what a dispensationalist was back then. Simple.

And the quotes of iranaeus and Justin martyr speak for themselves! Why do you not simply believe them??

Toodles

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Well it's completely and utterly wrong. That's my point.
Someone else with more knowledge of the Fathers will point out your errors concerning Irenaeus and Justin Martyr. My area of expertise is on the Puritans and you are entirely mistaken. Many Puritans certainly looked forward to a revival among the Jews, and many Reformed folk do today. Cromwell invited them back to England (after they had been expelled in the Middle Ages) with a view to facilitating their conversion. But they were all perfectly clear that if the Jews were going to be saved, it would be before the Return of Christ.

Believed Spurgeon looked for the jews to convert at time of second coming, as he was historical premil by his own testimony!