Do the "un-elect" know this about themselves?

[Marcia]

Sure people wnat to live forever, but when the unbeleiver says this they aren't talking about spiritual like we are, they mean physically, the body they have now keeps on going, they never have to die physically.

Actually, many New Agers believe that the goal is to escape the body and live in "higher realms" where they are truly spiritual. The body is seen as temporary or sometimes even bad in that it is goes against the "spiritual."

Then there's reincarnation, which means you get another body in the next life.

 

[StefanM]

But, apparently the un-elect can fool themselves into thinking they have trusted in Christ? Thus the churches full of unelected unsaved folks who think they are elect and saved?

Yes. That is true.

 

[Marcia]

lbaker asked:

But, apparently the un-elect can fool themselves into thinking they have trusted in Christ? Thus the churches full of unelected unsaved folks who think they are elect and saved?

Yes. That is true.

So does this mean we cannot have assurance of salvation?? Because that's what is sounds like.

 

[StefanM]

lbaker asked:




So does this mean we cannot have assurance of salvation?? Because that's what is sounds like.

No. It means that some have false assurance of salvation.

 

[Marcia]

No. It means that some have false assurance of salvation.

What is the difference between a "false" assurance of salvation and a "true" assurance?

 

[StefanM]

What is the difference between a "false" assurance of salvation and a "true" assurance?

One doesn't have to be a Calvinist to encounter this problem.

There are lots of people who think they are saved because they "walked down the aisle." That's an example of false assurance.

A person who depends on Christ by faith and has evidence of spiritual fruit has no reason to question his salvation.

 

[Rippon]

The Doctrine Of Election By A.W. Pink,Page,34

What is the difference between a "false" assurance of salvation and a "true" assurance?

Should an exercised reader be asking,How may I now be assured that my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life?We answer,very briefly.First,by God's having taught you to see and brought you to feel your inward corruption,your personal vileness,your awful guilt,your dire need of the sacrifice of the Lamb.Second,by causing you to make Christ of first importance in your thoughts and estimation,perceiving that He alone can save you.Third,by bringing you to believe in Him,rest your whole soul upon Him,desiring to be found in Him,not having your own righteousness,but His. Fourth,by making Him infinitely precious to you,so that He is all your desire.Fifth,by working in you a determination to please and glorify Him.

 

[webdog]

What we believe is very important. However, we will not trust in Christ without God's election.

Are you a calvinist now, StefanM?

 

[StefanM]

Are you a calvinist now, StefanM?

Yes, I have (re)turned to a position I held years ago.

 

[webdog]

OK. I at least know where you are coming from now

There is no coming to Christ without the work of the Holy Spirit. No Scripture states we come to Christ due to election.

 

[JustChristian]

Brother web,

While I agree with your statement about man wanting to live forever, you failed see the real problem. The problem is that man wants to live forever, but still remain in his sin. They have fallen for the easy-believe story of being saved from Hell, with no change. Salvation is being saved from our sins and people are not willing to give up their sins, or will say they give them up at a later date, after they sin a bit more, but that day never comes.

This sounds more like an argument for "Lordship Salvation" than election. Maybe they are one and the same in terms of their outcome.

 

[Rippon]

There is no coming to Christ without the work of the Holy Spirit. No Scripture states we come to Christ due to election.

And those he predestined,he also called;those he called,he also justified;those he justified,he also glorfied.(Ro.8:30TNIV)

"It is to call the elect that the Scriptures are given,that ministers are sent,that the gospel is preached,and the Holy Spirit is here.It is to accomplish election that men are taught of God,drawn of the Father,regenerated by the Holy Spirit,made partakers of of precious faith,endued with the spirit of adoption,the spirit of prayer,and the spirit of holiness. It is in consequence of their election that men are made obedient to the gospel,are sanctified by the Spirit,and become holy and without blame before God.Had there been no divine election,there had been no divine salvation...Lost sinners canot save themselves.God was under no obligation to save them.If He be pleased to save,He saves whom He will.
Election not only lies at the foundation of a sinner's hope,but also accompanies every step of the Christian's progress to heaven. It carries to him the glad tidings of salvation.It opens his heart to receive the Saviour.It is seen in every act of faith,in every holy duty,and in every effectual prayer.It calls him. It quickens him in Christ.It beautifies his soul.It crowns him with righteousness and life and glory...There was nothing in them which moved God to choose His people,and He so deals with them as not to permit anything in or from them as to cause Him to reverse that choice..." ( The Doctrine Of Election,by A.W.Pink,page 144)

 

[Marcia]

Should an exercised reader be asking,How may I now be assured that my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life?We answer,very briefly.First,by God's having taught you to see and brought you to feel your inward corruption,your personal vileness,your awful guilt,your dire need of the sacrifice of the Lamb.Second,by causing you to make Christ of first importance in your thoughts and estimation,perceiving that He alone can save you.Third,by bringing you to believe in Him,rest your whole soul upon Him,desiring to be found in Him,not having your own righteousness,but His. Fourth,by making Him infinitely precious to you,so that He is all your desire.Fifth,by working in you a determination to please and glorify Him.

First of all, whom do you mean by "we? in the 2nd sentence??

Secondly, this is not a brief answer.

Thirdly, your fifth point is not belief but a work. Just as works don't save us, they don't sanctify us either.

2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by (C)hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Gal 3.2,3

I've heard that Calvinists can be as unsecure in their salvation as Arminians (who believe one can lose one's salvation). This seems to bear it out if one must have a checklist like the above.

How about Rom. 8:
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Rom 8.14

Verse 16 says that the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

 

[Rippon]

First of all, whom do you mean by "we? in the 2nd sentence??

AWP didn't like to use the personal pronoun "I".He and his wife had a periodical called Studies In The Scriptures. It ran for decades -- till 1953,one year after his death.Most books by A.W.Pink have been extracted from his Studies.The "we" meant Pink and his wife Vera.
___________________________________________________________

Secondly, this is not a brief answer.
[/quote]

Sorry. I guess you haven't read many of the 17th century Puritans then.Pink is pithy in comparison.
_____________________________________________________________

Thirdly, your fifth point is not belief but a work. Just as works don't save us, they don't sanctify us either.
[/quote]

Since AWP was attributing everything to the Lord in the quote,I'm wondering how you arrived at that conclusion.
____________________________________________________________

2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by (C)hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Gal 3.2,3

[/quote]

Amen!
_____________________________________________________________

I've heard that Calvinists can be as unsecure in their salvation as Arminians (who believe one can lose one's salvation). This seems to bear it out if one must have a checklist like the above.
[/quote]

That's what you've heard,huh? A checklist? I thought it would be helpful.Many Christians do feel little assurance of their salvation.I think that if a believer affirms those principles that AWP laid out,then they would be comforted.Make your calling and election sure the Word says. The items Pink listed would tend to help solidify their faith in the Lord.
____________________________________________________________

How about Rom. 8:
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Rom 8.14

Verse 16 says that the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.[/quote]

Very good.I can add 1 John 5:13 :"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."(TNIV)

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That's what you've heard,huh? A checklist? I thought it would be helpful.Many Christians do feel little assurance of their salvation.I think that if a believer affirms those principles that AWP laid out,then they would be comforted.Make your calling and election sure the Word says. The items Pink listed would tend to help solidify their faith in the Lord.

It is likely true that all Christians may from time to time struggle with the assurance of their salvation. Our weakness in this area does not nullify the faithfulness of God.

 

[lbaker]

Should an exercised reader be asking,How may I now be assured that my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life?We answer,very briefly.First,by God's having taught you to see and brought you to feel your inward corruption,your personal vileness,your awful guilt,your dire need of the sacrifice of the Lamb.Second,by causing you to make Christ of first importance in your thoughts and estimation,perceiving that He alone can save you.Third,by bringing you to believe in Him,rest your whole soul upon Him,desiring to be found in Him,not having your own righteousness,but His. Fourth,by making Him infinitely precious to you,so that He is all your desire.Fifth,by working in you a determination to please and glorify Him.

All that sounds like the kind of thing a poor unelected soul could convince themselves they feel and think. On the other hand an elected person could worry that they weren't feeling and thinking that way sincerely enough to know they were secure.

 

[lbaker]

But, apparently the un-elect can fool themselves into thinking they have trusted in Christ? Thus the churches full of unelected unsaved folks who think they are elect and saved?

Yes. That is true.

That means you have folks that sincerely think they are following Jesus who have been rejected by God! How can that be? They have appealed to Him in faith and been turned down!

 

[Rippon]

All that sounds like the kind of thing a poor unelected soul could convince themselves they feel and think. On the other hand an elected person could worry that they weren't feeling and thinking that way sincerely enough to know they were secure.

The reprobate would have no such desire;no yearning after the Lord.That has to be planted by the Lord in the soul of an individual.

The elect sometimes have their doubts;they harbor an insecurity about their relationship with the Lord. I think Satan is responsible for a lot of that.

However,if someone is concerned about their walk before the Lord -- that's a good sign that they are a child of the King.A reprobate would not care about such a matter.

 

[lbaker]

The reprobate would have no such desire;no yearning after the Lord.That has to be planted by the Lord in the soul of an individual.

The elect sometimes have their doubts;they harbor an insecurity about their relationship with the Lord. I think Satan is responsible for a lot of that.

However,if someone is concerned about their walk before the Lord -- that's a good sign that they are a child of the King.A reprobate would not care about such a matter.

Then how do we get churches full of unelected unsaved people? Why would they go to the trouble if they didn't have some kind of yearning after God?

 

[Rippon]

Then how do we get churches full of unelected unsaved people? Why would they go to the trouble if they didn't have some kind of yearning after God?

All the elect will be saved at some point in their lives.If by the words "unelected unsaved people" you mean the reprobate -- it would be a more accurate term.

Many people have itching ears. False teachers attempt to scatch those itches.I don't know if those mammoth crowds at Joel O's church are largely reprobate or not.The Lord may have a great many of them.While continuing in that environment I would say they are unsaved. But the Lord has a time-table.He will get His own. Perhaps they will be made to feel the emptiness of it all and long for a true Bible and Christ-centered Church.The Lord plants those desires in people for Himself.He will lead them out of that mess and into His kingdom.

Many folks don't want the Lord. They want success,health and wealth. They have no true desire for Him.They're sign-seekers only.