Do the "un-elect" know this about themselves?

[StefanM]

That means you have folks that sincerely think they are following Jesus who have been rejected by God! How can that be? They have appealed to Him in faith and been turned down!

They have not appealed to him in biblical faith. A person who has true faith in God is elect.

My point is this. I have had youth in my church who couldn't stop sleeping with each other, lying, stealing, doing drugs, rejecting the clear truth of the Bible, denying foundational tenets of the faith, all while claiming that they are saved.

This is false assurance.

 

[lbaker]

They have not appealed to him in biblical faith. A person who has true faith in God is elect.

My point is this. I have had youth in my church who couldn't stop sleeping with each other, lying, stealing, doing drugs, rejecting the clear truth of the Bible, denying foundational tenets of the faith, all while claiming that they are saved.

This is false assurance.

Those aren't the kind of folks I'm talking about. I mean the kind of people who from the inside and outside both think they are, and appear to be, following Jesus but just aren't elect.

 

[StefanM]

Those aren't the kind of folks I'm talking about. I mean the kind of people who from the inside and outside both think they are, and appear to be, following Jesus but just aren't elect.

I believe that those people are elect.

 

[Rippon]

A real ( true,authentic) believer is elect. An elect person is not a species of another group.

 

[webdog]

I believe that those people are elect.

So you would believe the Pharisees were elect?

 

[lbaker]

Hmmmmm, so there are NOT people in church who appear to be saved but aren't?

I thought you said just the opposite earlier, that some who are in church and appear saved are not necessarily elect?

 

[StefanM]

Hmmmmm, so there are NOT people in church who appear to be saved but aren't?

I thought you said just the opposite earlier, that some who are in church and appear saved are not necessarily elect?

We are ships passing in the night here.

A person with internal and external evidence of salvation along with a commitment to Jesus has every reason to be assured of his salvation.

Now, you can fake the external things, and many people pay lip service to the faith. These people have no reason to be assured of salvation.

 

[StefanM]

So you would believe the Pharisees were elect?

No. The Pharisees rejected Christ.

 

[Joe]

Although I am not a Calvinist, I would like to ask this question.

Do any or all of the people who God has decided not to elect know this? I mean, are they conscious of this fact or do they simply live deceived, thinking that they could trust in Christ but actually not being able to even if they wanted to?

There is no such thing as the unelect.

The God of the world (Satan) blinds men to be able to see God, they are deceived. They often mean well, have good intentions, and have made willful choices to draw nearer to Christ. Some follow Christ without the holy spirit intervening immediately, so Satan is still their God. Sometimes God takes his time in sending the holy spirit. Playing church is often the result in the beginning, but if they keep seeking (him), they shall eventually find.

God did not create people for the purpose of tormenting them in hell for eternity. All have a chance to be saved (Romans 5:8 & John 3:16)

 

[Marcia]

We are ships passing in the night here.

A person with internal and external evidence of salvation along with a commitment to Jesus has every reason to be assured of his salvation.

Now, you can fake the external things, and many people pay lip service to the faith. These people have no reason to be assured of salvation.

I am wondering about the phrase "commitment to Jesus" above. This brings up several questions:
1. How is this commitment judged? What does it consist of?
2. How much commitment is enough?
3. Can a believer not be committed at certain points?
4. Where is the biblical support for this? I realize we are told to live out our faith all over the NT, but this does not mean everyone will do so, and certainly not to the same degree. So where is the line drawn?

In my ministry, the easiest way for me to decide if someone is a believer in ambiguous situations (sometimes it is not clear and I have to lean one way or another, although I realize I can not always be sure, of course) is their receptivity to what God's word says, not "commitment."

There are people who can look very committed and not be saved, aren't there?

 

[StefanM]

I really don't know what the big issue is here.

I can't judge someone's salvation. None of us can. That's a given. All we can do is go by "best evidence" for purposes of church membership/discipline, etc.

There are false professors. That much is assured. My view is that the false professors are not elect.

 

[Marcia]

I really don't know what the big issue is here.

I can't judge someone's salvation. None of us can. That's a given. All we can do is go by "best evidence" for purposes of church membership/discipline, etc.

There are false professors. That much is assured. My view is that the false professors are not elect.

You made "commitment to Jesus" a factor for determining salvation, and I was asking questions about it.

 

[StefanM]

You made "commitment to Jesus" a factor for determining salvation, and I was asking questions about it.

All I meant was a person who claims to have trusted in Christ for salvation.

 

[Marcia]

All I meant was a person who claims to have trusted in Christ for salvation.

OK, thanks for clarifying!