Do these scriptures deny human RESPONSIBILITY?

[The Biblicist]

The problem with your interpretation is that some of the same ones being blinded are spoken of by Paul as being provoked and saved.

That is simply not true. Those blinded is the majority of the nation in all generations EXCEPT FOR the "elect remnant" in each generation and EXCEPT FOR the elect in the final generation at the Lord's Coming which are "all" saved due to election (Rom. 11:26-28) as the nation in the final generation constitute the "elect remnant".

Your interpretation requires the "elect remnant" to part of those blinded but Romans 11:5-7 repudiates that showing they were NEVER part of those broken off.

 

[Protestant]

We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be genuine!

This is another classic Arminian argument, though the author of the post declares ‘he is neither Arminian or Pelagian.’

I am still waiting for his explanation as to what he does believe.

The Gospel message is genuine. It does not exclude anyone.

All are sinners in need of salvation.

The Gospel message does not omit the truths of salvation, including the necessity of the new birth, repentance and faith in Christ.

Furthermore, the Gospel message is a command, not a request.

God requires all men to obey.

Today is the day of salvation....not when you feel like it.

Neither the preacher nor his hearers know who are the Elect or who are the Reprobate.

However, this we do know: Those who believe have been graciously given the gift of faith by the Holy Spirit….though they did not deserve it.

Those who disbelieve do so through their own sinful fault.

God is under no compunction to give that which is not owed.

Grace to believe is owed no man.

However, righteous justice is owed every man.

“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

“Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

[preacher4truth]

We believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be genuine!

And here it is again. Truth in your view must succumb to your reason or it simply cannot be true (according to you in your subjectivity and finite mind).

Then you base the whole thing on 'receivers natural abilities' yet you attempt to deny your belief that it is according to ones own ability in other threads. It is not according to 'natural abilities' or inherent faith. Scripture denies your errors skan.

Thus it isn't according to your ideology. We only believe according to and by His power. It is monergistic, not synergistic and you still fail to understand 'not of ourselves'.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is another classic Arminian argument, though the author of the post declares ‘he is neither Arminian or Pelagian.’

I am still waiting for his explanation as to what he does believe.

The Gospel message is genuine. It does not exclude anyone.

All are sinners in need of salvation.

The Gospel message does not omit the truths of salvation, including the necessity of the new birth, repentance and faith in Christ.

Furthermore, the Gospel message is a command, not a request.

God requires all men to obey.

Today is the day of salvation....not when you feel like it.

Neither the preacher nor his hearers know who are the Elect or who are the Reprobate.

However, this we do know: Those who believe have been graciously given the gift of faith by the Holy Spirit….though they did not deserve it.

Those who disbelieve do so through their own sinful fault.

God is under no compunction to give that which is not owed.

Grace to believe is owed no man.

However, righteous justice is owed every man.

“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

“Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Another masterful and biblical post...simple yet clear, sharp, and when read gets an amen. Compared to most posts....you and Biblicist are maintaining sanity for many here:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

And here it is again. Truth in your view must succumb to your reason or it simply cannot be true (according to you in your subjectivity and finite mind).

Then you base the whole thing on 'receivers natural abilities' yet you attempt to deny your belief that it is according to ones own ability in other threads. It is not according to 'natural abilities' or inherent faith. Scripture denies your errors skan.

Thus it isn't according to your ideology. We only believe according to and by His power. It is monergistic, not synergistic and you still fail to understand 'not of ourselves'.

yes...some try so hard to get their mind around it...that they miss what is clearly in front of them:thumbsup:

 

[Skandelon]

And here it is again. Truth in your view must succumb to your reason or it simply cannot be true (according to you in your subjectivity and finite mind).

Funny, I made that exact same argument against a determinist earlier....I guess its all perspective.

I'm arguing based on revelation, whether you believe that or not.

...you still fail to understand 'not of ourselves'.

And you think being confronted by the conviction of the Holy Spirit through his inspired Word is being left 'to yourself,' which is sad.

 

[webdog]

Funny, I made that exact same argument against a determinist earlier....I guess its all perspective.

I'm arguing based on revelation, whether you believe that or not.



And you think being confronted by the conviction of the Holy Spirit through his inspired Word is being left 'to yourself,' which is sad.

Yes, isn't it a slam on Gods sovereignty if He is not powerful enough to reach man through His Word, messengers and circumstances He arranges? What a weak God that would be if what He arranged is not enough to raise the dead.

 

[preacher4truth]

Funny, I made that exact same argument against a determinist earlier....I guess its all perspective.

I'm arguing based on revelation, whether you believe that or not.

You're dodging the subject. Stay on track. What I've stated is true, deal with that instead of tales from elsewhere.

And you think being confronted by the conviction of the Holy Spirit through his inspired Word is being left 'to yourself,' which is sad.

Whoa there fellow...those words have nothing to do with this conversation, nor do they remotely represent me. This is classic you skan, you're not dealing with the actual statements or the truth of those statements, so what you do is attempt to put words in my mouth and make pretense as if I've denied a truth about the Holy Spirit or committed sacrilege, or worse. That's a shameful accusation and behavior on your part, go ahead and put an end to it and leave it out of this conversation.

Salvation is 'not of ourselves', and you still don't see it. None of it is based on an inherent ability within man. We only believe by the power of God, and faith is evidence, not a cause.

 

[preacher4truth]

yes...some try so hard to get their mind around it...that they miss what is clearly in front of them:thumbsup:

I agree this is the case with some, yet I also recognize that some do see it, and they fight against it because to them it doesn't seem fair or just, therefore it must be attacked. Bottom line? Some do not like this aspect of God's Sovereignty.

 

[Skandelon]

Whoa there fellow...those words have nothing to do with this conversation,

The fact that you can accused me of believing that salvation is 'of yourself' and then NOT see how these comments relate to that conversation proves to me you have very little idea about what we believe and that you very little desire, if any, to better understand what we believe...enough said.

 

[BobRyan]

But has Israel (those stumbling, those being hardened, those being sent a spirit of stupor, those being cut off), stumbled beyond recovery, been hardened beyond hope of salvation, been blinded beyond hope of ever seeing, been cut off without hope of being grafted back in again? I'll allow Paul to answer each of those questions in his own words:

Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.​

That doesn't sound "irreversible" to me.

And you would be correct!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


That doesn't sound "irreversible" to me.

Such irreversable condition can only be INDIVIDUALLY applied to the NATION as it then existed.

"individually applied to the nation" is a self-conflicted statement.

And

Claiming that the phrase in that post

"23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


That doesn't sound "irreversible" to me."

Speaks about "an irreversible condition" is not apparent.

in Christ,

Bob