Do they know what their leaders condone?

[fortytworc]

I can't believe the membership of the largest denomination in the U.S.A. continues to attend if they know that the leadership teaches an abused spouse should stay, pray and though the abuse will get worse, pray more!

http://archive.org/details/PaigePattersonsbcAdviceToVictimsOfDomesticViolence

 

[annsni]

That recording is from 12 years ago. Does anyone know what he believes now? I believe some things differently than 12 years ago. Heck, that was two full children ago for me!

 

[fortytworc]

That recording is from 12 years ago. Does anyone know what he believes now? I believe some things differently than 12 years ago. Heck, that was two full children ago for me!

I had to leave for awhile. While I was gone I realized THE HUGE error of mine by not doing any further research. Man, I was So angry! I let my emotions get the best of me. Now, I must say I have rushed to see if I could correct things, but here goes :


http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/tag/southern-baptist-convention/


Here is part of the statement :Our Position on Divorce
We believe that marriage is a covenant, the terms of which are the vows. Habitual, unrepentant, violation of those vows destroys the covenant and entitles the wronged spouse to divorce, though does not require it. The Bible sets out covenant-destroying sins: desertion and abuse (1 Cor. 7:15) – abuse is a form of desertion because the evil conduct violates and repels the victim – and adultery (Mat 19, Mk 10). God doesn't hate the legal process of divorce; he hates the sins of desertion, abuse and adultery that cause marriages to break down. We believe that a wronged party, after divorce, is free to remarry, only in the Lord (i.e., another believer).

Though it is still hard for me to fathom how a grown man could have said those things 12 years ago I must say I am relieved to see that the "powers that be" in the SBC have changed their official stance on this horrible way Satan keeps some of God's people beaten down, terrorized, and isolated.
I will try to be more calm and level headed in the future when something grabs me so intensely.
I apologize to any and everyone who was hurt, misled, or suffered in any way by my thread. Please forgive me.

 

[annsni]

I had to leave for awhile. While I was gone I realized THE HUGE error of mine by not doing any further research. Man, I was So angry! I let my emotions get the best of me. Now, I must say I have rushed to see if I could correct things, but here goes :


http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/tag/southern-baptist-convention/


Here is part of the statement :Our Position on Divorce
We believe that marriage is a covenant, the terms of which are the vows. Habitual, unrepentant, violation of those vows destroys the covenant and entitles the wronged spouse to divorce, though does not require it. The Bible sets out covenant-destroying sins: desertion and abuse (1 Cor. 7:15) – abuse is a form of desertion because the evil conduct violates and repels the victim – and adultery (Mat 19, Mk 10). God doesn't hate the legal process of divorce; he hates the sins of desertion, abuse and adultery that cause marriages to break down. We believe that a wronged party, after divorce, is free to remarry, only in the Lord (i.e., another believer).

Though it is still hard for me to fathom how a grown man could have said those things 12 years ago I must say I am relieved to see that the "powers that be" in the SBC have changed their official stance on this horrible way Satan keeps some of God's people beaten down, terrorized, and isolated.
I will try to be more calm and level headed in the future when something grabs me so intensely.
I apologize to any and everyone who was hurt, misled, or suffered in any way by my thread. Please forgive me.

Thank you for that!! What a breath of fresh air!! But I wouldn't bee too hard on yourself. We've ALL done it!! Heck, I had to think twice about how long ago 2000 was because it seems like it was just last year!! But I'm glad that this man has changed his mind. I agree with what he had to say recently and I would hope that women who are in abusive situations would find love and support - and most of all protection - in their church. It's heartbreaking to think that women are bullied into staying with an abusive man by "godly" men.

 

[DiamondLady]

Thank you for that!! What a breath of fresh air!! But I wouldn't bee too hard on yourself. We've ALL done it!! Heck, I had to think twice about how long ago 2000 was because it seems like it was just last year!! But I'm glad that this man has changed his mind. I agree with what he had to say recently and I would hope that women who are in abusive situations would find love and support - and most of all protection - in their church. It's heartbreaking to think that women are bullied into staying with an abusive man by "godly" men.

Unfortunately, it happens all too often, even today, in churches because of men who staunchly believe that divorce, in any situation, is wrong. It happens because parents teach their children "You make your bed, you lie in it". It happens because of fear, because of intimidation, because of ignorance of God's Word, because of pastors, teachers, fathers, even mothers and friends who ignore the signs and accept the excuses the victim gives for the bruises, the haunted eyes, the reserve and fear.

We all need to be more accountable, to hold out our hands in hope, to embrace the victims with love instead of treating them like outcasts because they've left a violent situation.

 

[12strings]

Now if P.P. would just change his mind on a few other things, he'd really be going somewhere!

 

[mandym]

When there is abuse the first thing I counsel is to get somewhere safe. I do not begin any other counsel until safety has been acquired. The reason I do this is because I do not want the unsafe spouse and children to get distracted by other issues.

Second I do not ever counsel in a way that gives someone permission to divorce. The spouse being abused may need to reside somewhere else but my counsel is always to pray and wait in safety.

The abusive spouse will have to take steps to restore trust and the abused spouse will only be able to begin restoration as they feel comfortable and trust is building.

 

[DiamondLady]

When there is abuse the first thing I counsel is to get somewhere safe. I do not begin any other counsel until safety has been acquired. The reason I do this is because I do not want the unsafe spouse and children to get distracted by other issues.

Second I do not ever counsel in a way that gives someone permission to divorce. The spouse being abused may need to reside somewhere else but my counsel is always to pray and wait in safety.

The abusive spouse will have to take steps to restore trust and the abused spouse will only be able to begin restoration as they feel comfortable and trust is building.

May I suggest that you pray and rethink this. There are many more instances where divorce is absolutely necessary to free the abused victim. Had I not divorced my ex-husband and left the state he would STILL, to this day, be stalking me. Many abusers feel they own their spouse, that they will kill them before they allow them to leave or be with anyone else. Most often the abuse comes because of unreasonable jealousy. Simply leaving isn't the last option because the will hunt and find you.

Abusers are always sorry. They'll often go for long, long periods of time between abusive episodes. They're sweet and kind, loving and gentle after they've abused, swearing it will never happen again, bringing gifts, being attentive, even promising to go to counseling (and will for short amounts of time.)

Abusers are intimidators and bullies. They are also as charming as Satan himself. Abuse is a cycle, so abusers have often either been abused or their father was an abuser. By counseling an abuse victim to wait and pray and then allow the trust to rebuild and return to their spouse you are returning them for further abuse. It is very rare than an abuser ever stops abusing. I realize God is capable of anything, but I also have experience in this area and know that good "Christian" men can be among the worst of abusers.

God does love divorced people, uses divorced people and forgives divorced people. Divorce is not the unpardonable sin. There is peace after divorce. God will restore and heal. Abused people to do not need to remain in bondage and should not be counseled to stay in an abusive relationship....EVER.

 

[billwald]

>That recording is from 12 years ago.

People on BB criticize the Catholic Church for statements made 1,200 years ago.

 

[12strings]

Abusers are intimidators and bullies. They are also as charming as Satan himself. Abuse is a cycle, so abusers have often either been abused or their father was an abuser. By counseling an abuse victim to wait and pray and then allow the trust to rebuild and return to their spouse you are returning them for further abuse. It is very rare than an abuser ever stops abusing. I realize God is capable of anything, but I also have experience in this area and know that good "Christian" men can be among the worst of abusers.

God does love divorced people, uses divorced people and forgives divorced people. Divorce is not the unpardonable sin. There is peace after divorce. God will restore and heal. Abused people to do not need to remain in bondage and should not be counseled to stay in an abusive relationship....EVER.

I know you have much more experience with this than I do, and much of what you are saying is true, but I want to address the 3 bolded sections above:

1. I think is sometimes helpful, but also sometimes not helpful to point out past abuse of abusers. The Cycle CAN be broken, and past abuse does not mean the person is destined to be an abuser for life.

2 & 3. I would disagree with your final statement only if you mean should not be counseled to stay in the house. I realize divorce may be the only option for some, but would say immediate to divorce upon hearing of abuse is a bit premature. It may be rare that a husband is willing to change, but it is not impossible, and I think some effort and grace is needed toward him, rather than giving up on him immediately.

 

[12strings]

I can't believe the membership of the largest denomination in the U.S.A. continues to attend if they know that the leadership teaches an abused spouse should stay, pray and though the abuse will get worse, pray more!

http://archive.org/details/PaigePattersonsbcAdviceToVictimsOfDomesticViolence

I will add that there is A LOT of stuff that SBC Leadership says that makes us (SBC'ers) mad, or just makes us thing they have no clue...However, most of what they say has no real effect on our local church, so we continue to attend the church and ignore the stupid stuff some people say.

I don't leave the U.S. Everytime a President says something stupid.:laugh:

 

[fortytworc]

I will add that there is A LOT of stuff that SBC Leadership says that makes us (SBC'ers) mad, or just makes us thing they have no clue...However, most of what they say has no real effect on our local church, so we continue to attend the church and ignore the stupid stuff some people say.

I don't leave the U.S. Everytime a President says something stupid.:laugh:

When someone is in the public eye under close scrutiny we will hear about the stupid stuff.
Stupid stuff that I might say here but since I am nobody it totally doesn't get any attention.
Good Thing

 

[Jerome]

Does anyone know what he believes now?

I must say I have rushed to see if I could correct things, but here goes :

http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/tag/southern-baptist-convention/

Here is part of the statement :Our Position on Divorce
We believe that marriage is a covenant, the terms of which are the vows. Habitual, unrepentant, violation of those vows destroys the covenant and entitles the wronged spouse to divorce. . .


. . .I am relieved to see that the "powers that be" in the SBC have changed their official stance on this horrible way Satan keeps some of God's people beaten down, terrorized, and isolated.

But I'm glad that this man has changed his mind.

I don't understand why you think that blog represents/contains some offical stance of SBC or Patterson.

It is an anti-abuse blog run by a non-SBC minister; the 'statement' is his and his fellow blog authors', not the SBC's or Patterson's.

 

[DiamondLady]

I know you have much more experience with this than I do, and much of what you are saying is true, but I want to address the 3 bolded sections above:

1. I think is sometimes helpful, but also sometimes not helpful to point out past abuse of abusers. The Cycle CAN be broken, and past abuse does not mean the person is destined to be an abuser for life.

2 & 3. I would disagree with your final statement only if you mean should not be counseled to stay in the house. I realize divorce may be the only option for some, but would say immediate to divorce upon hearing of abuse is a bit premature. It may be rare that a husband is willing to change, but it is not impossible, and I think some effort and grace is needed toward him, rather than giving up on him immediately.

Thank you, this is an emotional subject for me because I lived through it personally. I agree the cycle can be broken, but it is very difficult and requires hard work and committment on the part of the abuser.

An abuse victim should never be counseled to stay in the home. They always need to leave. Divorce is never the first option but sometimes it is a must. As I said, with God all things are possible, but you must also understand that rarely does a victim cry out for help on the first time they are abused. Most often they have lived with it for a very long time. Escape for them is difficult because they are afraid to leave their abuser. Many times they've been brainwashed by their abuser that they are worthless, that they can not survive without their abuser....it's a horrible life.

What I am saying is, that as counselors, pastors and even family members we must be careful to make sure they are not going back into a situation where there can be any repeat of abuse.

 

[fortytworc]

>That recording is from 12 years ago.

People on BB criticize the Catholic Church for statements made 1,200 years ago.

Are you Catholic? OR if you are you cant' say I suppose

 

[fortytworc]

I don't understand why you think that blog represents/contains some offical stance of SBC or Patterson.

It is an anti-abuse blog run by a non-SBC minister; the 'statement' is his and his fellow blog authors', not the SBC's or Patterson's.

More diggin' to do later. Thank You.

 

[billwald]

>Are you Catholic?

I am a member of First Everett (WA) Christian Reformed Church.

>OR if you are you cant' say I suppose

Say again??????

 

[fortytworc]

That recording is from 12 years ago. Does anyone know what he believes now? I believe some things differently than 12 years ago. Heck, that was two full children ago for me!

I don't understand why you think that blog represents/contains some offical stance of SBC or Patterson.

It is an anti-abuse blog run by a non-SBC minister; the 'statement' is his and his fellow blog authors', not the SBC's or Patterson's.

More diggin' to do later. Thank You.

I have tried to find an updated statement on domestic violence by the Southern Baptist Convention. When it comes to an Official statement, resolution, position this is all I could find:
Resolution On Domestic Violence
June 1979

WHEREAS, In this country it is now estimated that as many as 2,000 children die each year as a result of domestic violence and as many as two million suffer from abuse and neglect, and

WHEREAS, Children in one of ten American families hit, beat, stab, or shoot their parents, and

WHEREAS, Spouse battering, violent acts by either husband or wife, occur in more than 20 percent of American homes, and

WHEREAS, More police die as a result of answering domestic violence calls than any other aspect of their work, and

WHEREAS, Studies indicate that once domestic violence occurs, there is a higher chance of its occurring again and then continuing through several generations,

Therefore be it RESOLVED, That we recognize domestic violence as one of the serious moral issues of our time, and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we encourage local churches to be involved in local programs of ministry for those involved in domestic violence, and that we encourage pastors to utilize available resources such as public and voluntary organizations which can aid them in ministering to families touch by domestic violence, and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we encourage the establishment of clear and responsible public policy related to domestic violence, which policy should be effective at the local, state, and national levels.


This is a resolution from friggin 1979!!!!
As bad as that may be: This 'Resolution' HAS NO SUBSTANCE! It is a bunch of words that amount to a Waste Of Ink!!! If anybody can find anything more recent and official please post it.I must say(but who am I) I am very disappointed at this point. This poor excuse of a statement just about leaves me back to the beginning before I did more research and my emotions were leading the way. Disappointment now. Very Angry (rightly so) if nothing else comes in.

 

[billwald]

Nice statement. "Law without enforcement is merely advise." When's the last time a person was excommunicated for thumping on a spouse or child in any Christian denomination?

 

[fortytworc]

I have tried to find an updated statement on domestic violence by the Southern Baptist Convention. When it comes to an Official statement, resolution, position this is all I could find:
Resolution On Domestic Violence
June 1979

WHEREAS, In this country it is now estimated that as many as 2,000 children die each year as a result of domestic violence and as many as two million suffer from abuse and neglect, and

WHEREAS, Children in one of ten American families hit, beat, stab, or shoot their parents, and

WHEREAS, Spouse battering, violent acts by either husband or wife, occur in more than 20 percent of American homes, and

WHEREAS, More police die as a result of answering domestic violence calls than any other aspect of their work, and

WHEREAS, Studies indicate that once domestic violence occurs, there is a higher chance of its occurring again and then continuing through several generations,

Therefore be it RESOLVED, That we recognize domestic violence as one of the serious moral issues of our time, and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we encourage local churches to be involved in local programs of ministry for those involved in domestic violence, and that we encourage pastors to utilize available resources such as public and voluntary organizations which can aid them in ministering to families touch by domestic violence, and

Be it further RESOLVED, That we encourage the establishment of clear and responsible public policy related to domestic violence, which policy should be effective at the local, state, and national levels.


This is a resolution from friggin 1979!!!!
As bad as that may be: This 'Resolution' HAS NO SUBSTANCE! It is a bunch of words that amount to a Waste Of Ink!!! If anybody can find anything more recent and official please post it.I must say(but who am I) I am very disappointed at this point. This poor excuse of a statement just about leaves me back to the beginning before I did more research and my emotions were leading the way. Disappointment now. Very Angry (rightly so) if nothing else comes in.

It looks as though they are wanting the government to do what they will not spell out. That way the job gets done and the church does not have to break any of their "rules."