Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?

[DHK]

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Where did this red herring come from.
The subject is "seeking God," not others, or anything else.

 

[preacher4truth]

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Robert Snow.....calvinists are not answering because the blind are leading the blind. To deny all died in Adam is to deny the foundational aspect of the cross......at that one point in time...all sinned...at that point in time all died.
Adam sin imputed Christ righteousness imputed.....it is a package deal

The problem in all this is people actually think they can, within themselves, do as God said, and seek Him.

They cannot.

That is Gods point, and this incriminates all these others who are Hindu, Buddhists, Islamic, and it really doesn't matter what they are, none of mankind can really seek Him, that is Gods point, we cannot do it. That is the dilemma that we are in, we cannot do it, and God uses this to show our fallen nature.

None of these other religions are truly seeking HIM, they cannot, and again, their religion doesn't seek True God anyhow, neither does any man. This is Gods indictment upon mankind.

 

[Benjamin]

The problem in all this is people actually think they can, within themselves, do as God said, and seek Him.

They cannot.

...none of mankind can really seek Him, that is Gods point, we cannot do it. That is the dilemma that we are in, we cannot do it, and God uses this to show our fallen nature.

"Really"? No one can seek Him??? God is just pulling our legs, eh? Like I said, I don't believe God is feeding empty words. Amazing, the scripture that is overlooked in order to support a manmade doctrine!

Can't resist:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we can do nothing.

 

[preacher4truth]

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Robert Snow.....calvinists are not answering because the blind are leading the blind. To deny all died in Adam is to deny the foundational aspect of the cross......at that one point in time...all sinned...at that point in time all died.
Adam sin imputed Christ righteousness imputed.....it is a package deal

I get your point, the gentiles (whether buddhist, hindu, Islam, or whatever) really are not seeking after GOD (the God of Scripture) but are to the contrary worshipping and seeking false gods (devils) unknowingly! GREAT point Iconoclast!!!! Only until they are converted can they come to truly seek after GOD. Amen!!!!!

That's awesome bro!

 

[DHK]

The problem in all this is people actually think they can, within themselves, do as God said, and seek Him.

They cannot.

They cannot do what? Be more specific.
They cannot save themselves? No one said that?
They cannot obey God who said: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found."
--God didn't give this command if it couldn't be obeyed contrary to your assertion.

That is Gods point, and this incriminates all these others who are Hindu, Buddhists, Islamic, and it really doesn't matter what they are, none of mankind can really seek Him, that is Gods point, we cannot do it. That is the dilemma that we are in, we cannot do it, and God uses this to show our fallen nature.

Have you ever read missionary biographies or talked with missionaries? I have heard the testimony of many who have prayed something like this: "God, if there is a God, please reveal your true self to me." The testimony of many missionaries is that God sent them to answer the prayer of such a person as that--a person seeking God; a person seeking the truth; seeking the true God. Thus the truth of:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

None of these other religions are truly seeking HIM, they cannot, and again, their religion doesn't seek True God anyhow, neither does any man. This is Gods indictment upon mankind.

Yes, false religions worship false gods. They are given over to evil. But occasionally man is able to seek God. Otherwise the Scriptures would not give such indicting verses as:

(for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) (Romans 2:14-15)

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

The heavens declare the glory of God. The expanse shows his handiwork. Day after day they pour forth speech, And night after night they display knowledge. (Psalms 19:1-2)

Man responds to the light he is given. The Bible says he is without excuse. The Bible also says he is able to seek the Lord.

 

[webdog]

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Robert Snow.....calvinists are not answering because the blind are leading the blind. To deny all died in Adam is to deny the foundational aspect of the cross......at that one point in time...all sinned...at that point in time all died.
Adam sin imputed Christ righteousness imputed.....it is a package deal

the foundational aspect of the cross does not hinge on Augustinian doctrine. Your "package deal" leads to universalism if man is automatically placed in Adam sans sinning...and this is everyone...these same "all" must be automatically placed in christ sans faith.

...and I hope your blind leading the blind comment was not another veiled attack on our salvation?

 

[preacher4truth]

"Really"? No one can seek Him??? God is just pulling our legs, eh? Like I said, I don't believe God is feeding empty words. Amazing, the scripture that is overlooked in order to support a manmade doctrine!

Can't resist:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we can do nothing.

You are totally missing the point. God used the law and other things to show us our sin.

That is His point, your point seems to brag upon human ability, which is opposed to my point?

No more needs to be said, we are in direct opposition to one another here in belief.

 

[preacher4truth]

They cannot do what? Be more specific.

I've been specific enough.

Good night DHK and Godspeed.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Acts 16:14. Lydia didn't open her own heart to receive Paul's message. Nor did Paul open her heart by the power of his message. 'The Lord opened her heart to receive the things spoken by Paul.'

I have been declaring this truth all along.
Where does faith come from. It is not a gift from God. It comes from the Word of God.

Look again at the text. It does not say that the word opened Lydia's heart. You are reading that into the text. The Lord Himself opened her heart.

"Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom.10:17).
That is the Biblical answer.

Yes, but unless God opens their hearts to receive the word they inevitably reject it (John 3:19; Rom 3:11-12).

Consider John 1:13. The New Birth comes

'Not of blood.' Grace does not run in family lines.

'Nor of the will of the flesh.' Our own fallen wills cannot receive the things of God (1Cor 2:14).

'Nor of the will of man.' It is not of some third party. The exhortations of the preacher, the incantations of the priest, the ministrations of the social worker cannot effect the New Birth. It is of God from first to last. Alleluia!

I'll reply to your other points as I have time.

Steve

 

[convicted1]

DHK, you readily admitted that Adam died spiritually and then posed the question, "How can a corpse respond?"

But then we read, "By grace are ye saved, through faith........." One gift of God which includes His grace including faith.... How then can a corpse respond except he be regenerated by God, followed or demonstrated by man's expression of belief through the gift of faith. In every instance it is God's first action and man's reaction. It is not the other way around.......by any scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

Ah, but here's the rub, Bro. Jim. I hear(or, rather "see" on here) the statement that one must be regenerated to believe(made alive to believe), and then they can be saved. Nowhere can I find this in the scriptures....or I haven't found it. To be regenerated means "new birth". "New Birth" apparently means "new life", or I take it to mean that. Now, what did Jesus say brought forth "life"? Jesus stated, Except ye eat of my flesh, and drink of my blood, ye have no life in you". His flesh and blood brings us to life. You can not have "life" and then choose to believe later. You have life because you believe, and you believe because you have life. Regeneration and salvation are different words that mean the same thing. You are regenerated because you have life, you have life because you are regenerated.

 

[convicted1]

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Robert Snow.....calvinists are not answering because the blind are leading the blind. To deny all died in Adam is to deny the foundational aspect of the cross......at that one point in time...all sinned...at that point in time all died.
Adam sin imputed Christ righteousness imputed.....it is a package deal

Now, Brother, I am gonna have to put you to a challenge on what I bolded. Show me where it states that in Adam all died(past tense). Here's the closest thing I could find going through this link:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=in+adam+all+die&t=KJV


1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now, in Adam, all die is correct. It doesn't state "all died". Major difference. All will die in Adam, meaning our flesh is in Adam, and whether we be saint or sinner, we are going to die the "fleshly death". Only those who die lost will die the spiritual death(I am referring to the eternal torment of the lake of fire here). Our soul can directly from God, as He placed it in our physical body. We then over time, after we come to know to do good, and doeth it not, sin is imputed unto us, and then we die spiritually. After this occurance, we become totally depraved, and are in need of communion with God. In Adam is in reference to our flesh, and that it will die.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Martin Marprelate]

[QUOTE="Convicted1]Show me where it states that in Adam all died(past tense). [/QUOTE]
Rom 5:15. For if by the one man's offense, many died, much more the grace of God and the gift.....etc. See the whole chapter from verse 12.

Steve

 

[Winman]

Now, Brother, I am gonna have to put you to a challenge on what I bolded. Show me where it states that in Adam all died(past tense). Here's the closest thing I could find going through this link:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=in+adam+all+die&t=KJV


1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now, in Adam, all die is correct. It doesn't state "all died". Major difference. All will die in Adam, meaning our flesh is in Adam, and whether we be saint or sinner, we are going to die the "fleshly death". Only those who die lost will die the spiritual death(I am referring to the eternal torment of the lake of fire here). Our soul can directly from God, as He placed it in our physical body. We then over time, after we come to know to do good, and doeth it not, sin is imputed unto us, and then we die spiritually. After this occurance, we become totally depraved, and are in need of communion with God. In Adam is in reference to our flesh, and that it will die.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Correct Willis, this is one of the most misquoted verses in scripture. This is the one and only time the term "in Adam" is used in scriptures and it is speaking of the death and resurrection of the physical body which is the theme of chapter 15. This chapter is not speaking of spiritual death.

 

[JesusFan]

You said corpse, Jim, not I. The Calvinist defines "death" as corpse. It is a wrong definition and has led to many errors in theology. The definition of "death" is simply separation. When Adam died he was separated from God spiritually. In order to be restored to fellowship blood had to be shed. However, it is apparent that he was able to communicate with God before that happened. Death does not mean corpse, lifelessness, etc. It means separation. People in hell will be separated from God for all eternity. They will be alive, but separated from God. What makes them dead is the separation. They will still be able to feel pain.

Spiritualm dead mankind though IS seperated to God BECAUSE of their deadness!

Again, Dead ness as Bible defines it is more than seperation, also inability within ourselves to have fellowship with God and to even come to God on ourselves!

 

[JesusFan]

They cannot do what? Be more specific.
They cannot save themselves? No one said that?
They cannot obey God who said: "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found."
--God didn't give this command if it couldn't be obeyed contrary to your assertion.

Have you ever read missionary biographies or talked with missionaries? I have heard the testimony of many who have prayed something like this: "God, if there is a God, please reveal your true self to me." The testimony of many missionaries is that God sent them to answer the prayer of such a person as that--a person seeking God; a person seeking the truth; seeking the true God. Thus the truth of:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

Yes, false religions worship false gods. They are given over to evil. But occasionally man is able to seek God. Otherwise the Scriptures would not give such indicting verses as:

(for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) (Romans 2:14-15)

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. (Romans 1:20)

The heavens declare the glory of God. The expanse shows his handiwork. Day after day they pour forth speech, And night after night they display knowledge. (Psalms 19:1-2)

Man responds to the light he is given. The Bible says he is without excuse. The Bible also says he is able to seek the Lord.

man CAN know God through His creation, know that he is powerful, etrnal, Smart etc

man CANNOT though know God in a personal way apart from specific revealtion from the Bible...

Point here is that Man still CANNOT receive that revelation in a saving fashion unless God decides to send His enabling Grace to allow the siiner to be able to place faith in Christ!

God does NOT give us an "injection" to force us to place faith in Jesus...

he allows us to be in a position/stae that we could not do in ourselves, to be able to "freely" respond in faith to accept jesus!

 

[webdog]

Spiritualm dead mankind though IS seperated to God BECAUSE of their deadness!

Again, Dead ness as Bible defines it is more than seperation, also inability within ourselves to have fellowship with God and to even come to God on ourselves!

You are also equating the results of death with the definition of it.

 

[DHK]

Look again at the text. It does not say that the word opened Lydia's heart. You are reading that into the text. The Lord Himself opened her heart.

When I got saved the Lord opened my heart as well. He didn't take a hypodermic needle and give an injection of faith (a Calvinistic belief). He does not give faith to the unregenerate; does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. What happened then?
I had been a Roman Catholic for 20 years and had never heard the gospel. The first time I heard the gospel (the Word of God explained) the Lord opened my heart to the truth of its message. I saw for the first time that Christ actually paid the penalty for my sins personally and it was HE, not the RCC that took could forgive my sins and grant me eternal life. Thus, I believed on him and he granted me salvation.
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Confidence in the truth of the Word of God opened my heart. The working of the Holy Spirit (working through the Word of God) opened my heart. God did not give me faith. It was my duty to believe the message presented to me. I could receive it or reject it. That choice was mine to make; as it was Lydia's. Paul did not force her, and neither did God.

Yes, but unless God opens their hearts to receive the word they inevitably reject it (John 3:19; Rom 3:11-12).

God does not inject faith in order to open one's heart. There is no evidence of this in Scripture. Romans 10:17 gives you the answer of where faith comes from.

Consider John 1:13. The New Birth comes

'Not of blood.' Grace does not run in family lines.

'Nor of the will of the flesh.' Our own fallen wills cannot receive the things of God (1Cor 2:14).

'Nor of the will of man.' It is not of some third party. The exhortations of the preacher, the incantations of the priest, the ministrations of the social worker cannot effect the New Birth. It is of God from first to last. Alleluia!

Now, why not quote verse 12 and get the full context:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
--The end result of the new birth is becoming a child of God. We are born into his family. How does that happen? By receiving him...to them that believe on his name. That is the method by which one is born again. Then in verse 13 it follows this up and tells us that the new birth is all of God (salvation is all of God). This is true because faith is not a work. It is to be received as a gift of God. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom.6:23). A gift must be received.

 

[DHK]

Spiritualm dead mankind though IS seperated to God BECAUSE of their deadness!

You are being redundant and not making sense:
Dead is separation because of being dead. ??

Again, Dead ness as Bible defines it is more than seperation, also inability within ourselves to have fellowship with God and to even come to God on ourselves!

You are adding to the definition of "dead" without Scriptural support. The support you give is simply a Calvinistic definition which repeated often enough will be believed whether truth or error. If it is true it will be in the Bible.
Every time dead is used in the Bible it means separation. I gave in a previous post plenty of Scripture to back this up.

 

[DHK]

man CAN know God through His creation, know that he is powerful, etrnal, Smart etc

Thus man has some light of God. The Bible says he is without excuse (Romans 1:20), and that he has the law written on his heart (Romans 2:14), and that when he sins against God he makes excuses for his sin and blames others for it because his conscience bears witness to him of that sin, just like it did with Adam (Romans 2:15)
--We are responsible for the light that we do have.

man CANNOT though know God in a personal way apart from specific revealtion from the Bible...

That is true. But man does have light. When man acts upon the light that he does have, God will send him more light (Titus 2:11).

Point here is that Man still CANNOT receive that revelation in a saving fashion unless God decides to send His enabling Grace to allow the siiner to be able to place faith in Christ!

If he does not receive that specific revelation, and has asked that revelation to be given to him then his blood will be upon your hands (Romans 10:13-15).

God does NOT give us an "injection" to force us to place faith in Jesus...

he allows us to be in a position/stae that we could not do in ourselves, to be able to "freely" respond in faith to accept jesus!

I agree with that. He sovereignly creates the circumstances (as He did with Lydia) that one might hear the word of God, and have the choice to trust or reject him.

 

[JesusFan]

When I got saved the Lord opened my heart as well. He didn't take a hypodermic needle and give an injection of faith (a Calvinistic belief). He does not give faith to the unregenerate; does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. What happened then?
I had been a Roman Catholic for 20 years and had never heard the gospel. The first time I heard the gospel (the Word of God explained) the Lord opened my heart to the truth of its message. I saw for the first time that Christ actually paid the penalty for my sins personally and it was HE, not the RCC that took could forgive my sins and grant me eternal life. Thus, I believed on him and he granted me salvation.
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Confidence in the truth of the Word of God opened my heart. The working of the Holy Spirit (working through the Word of God) opened my heart. God did not give me faith. It was my duty to believe the message presented to me. I could receive it or reject it. That choice was mine to make; as it was Lydia's. Paul did not force her, and neither did God.

God does not inject faith in order to open one's heart. There is no evidence of this in Scripture. Romans 10:17 gives you the answer of where faith comes from.

Now, why not quote verse 12 and get the full context:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
--The end result of the new birth is becoming a child of God. We are born into his family. How does that happen? By receiving him...to them that believe on his name. That is the method by which one is born again. Then in verse 13 it follows this up and tells us that the new birth is all of God (salvation is all of God). This is true because faith is not a work. It is to be received as a gift of God. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom.6:23). A gift must be received.

Are you saying here then the Holy Spirit enabled you to be in a spiritual state/condition to actually be able to respond by faith in Chrsit of the Gospel message?