Do We All have the same Kind Of Free Will as adam Had From God?

[Christos doulos]

Amy I mean you no disrespect but I don't believe what you are saying about the “falling into sin”. Since I have been a Christian in every single case even dealing with anger the Spirit is dealing with me to not respond in the manner I am about to prior to the sin. I have never done any sin since I was saved that there was not first some clear temptation and instant dealing of the spirit before I sinned

One last question. What about the sins you were not aware of? Sinning in ignorance?

 

[freeatlast]

One last question. What about sinning in ignorance?

If you do not know you have sinned then you cannot make claims to sinning in that area and the event would not be considered willful, (from rebellion). I assume that you do not discipline your children if they do something that they do not know is wrong. In such cases you teach them, not discipline them.
James 1:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.
All sin is knowingly willful rebellion. Show me anyone in the NT asking forgiveness for things they do not know they did that were wrong.

 

[MB]

We willfully sin because that is our nature.

True but we have an advocate with the Father. All the Father see's is the righteousness of Christ. If we sinned unwillingly we would not be responsible for our sin. We are free from sin's effect because of our advocate Jesus Christ. Sin lives in our flesh while our spirits agree with the Law. We are to train the flesh as in take control of it and make it do right.

As long as our conscience is working it would be impossible to sin by accident.

I ask for forgiveness everytime I sin though I have not reached perfection. Sin is an on going battle all our lives until the flesh is renewed at the ressurection.
MB

 

[Christos doulos]

James 4:17
If you do not know you have sinned then you cannot make claims to sinning in that area and the event would not be considered willful. (from rebellion) I assume that you do not discipline your children if they do something that they do not know is wrong. Why would we think God would do any different.
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

Sorry. Another question if you may? Are you saying, it isn't a sin if you don't know it's a sin?

 

[Amy.G]

All sin is a choice and as long as we hold that sin rules over us (“never depart from us” as you put it) we will never get the victory over sin as the Lord desires us to have.

We already have the victory over sin. We have eternal life. Those who are saved are saved from the penalty of sin (eternal death), meaning we have the victory.

But if as you say, we can stop sinning altogether, why hasn't even one person accomplished this?

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Paul spoke about sin dwelling in us. We must shed the flesh and it's weaknesses in order to be totally sin free. That's why flesh cannot inherit the kingdom. It is still tainted with sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Just because you say so, doesn't make what you say a fact. If it isn't in scripture it isn't from God.

I don't follow any thing else but scripture. Not Calvin or Auigustine they were just men with the same abilities as my self.
If you can't prove doctrine with scripture it isn't true.
MB

you say;If you can't prove doctrine with scripture it isn't true


So what verse says anything about such an idea of free will exists?
you speak as if the bible teaches this...so you must have seen it somewhere, as you do not believe anything not in scripture.:thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

Sorry. Another question if you may? Are you saying, it isn't a sin if you don't know it's a sin?

No, I am saying that it is not applied to the person if they are ignorant of the issue.
Romans says this;
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

In other words those who know the law will be judged by it and those who never hear of the law will still perish but not because they are judged by it. They will be judged by their conscience for who has not done things they knew was wrong?

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

 

[freeatlast]

We already have the victory over sin. We have eternal life. Those who are saved are saved from the penalty of sin (eternal death), meaning we have the victory.

But if as you say, we can stop sinning altogether, why hasn't even one person accomplished this?

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Paul spoke about sin dwelling in us. We must shed the flesh and it's weaknesses in order to be totally sin free. That's why flesh cannot inherit the kingdom. It is still tainted with sin.

Yes we have victory positionally, but we are called to get it experientially. No one has to sin. The words of Jesus just proves we do not have to sin. In His weakness He still did not sin and neither do we have to sin. As for Paul he was not suggesting we cannot over come sin.
He says of himself that while under the law he kept the law. He did not suddenly have some new losing battle with sin now that he was saved. All sin is willful rebellion and a choice with a way out that we refuse to take.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[agedman]

What makes you think Adam had free will?

Of course Adam did, because the relationship between God and Adam was exactly opposite than what it was after Adam determined to love Eve more than God.

If strict Calvinism is adhered to Adam had no choice except to fall because it was ordained of God.

Not really, again, the prophetic relationship of man and salvation was not given until God confronted the serpent. That is when the promise was given of a future redemptive work.

If man was elect before the foundation of the world then Adam had to sin based on Calvinism.

Would you show where calvinistic thinking would hold to this view? Not to say that some may, but perhaps you can be more specific as to who and what the statement was including where it can be found for validation.

I certainly do not hold that statement in agreement. Again, the relationship of Adam to God was completely different in Eden. That relationship is not enjoyed in full until the completed redemptive work (not just in conversion) but also when the population of the new heaven and earth is complete and God has wiped away all tears.

So to the question do we have free will today as did Adam. Yes there is no difference. He chose and we choose. He was awake in his choosing and we have to be awaken to choose, but we both choose. I hold that in the mist of God's sovereign will man exercises free will. Both election and free will working together without one overriding the other.

Of course you would post that man has "free will" / "free choice" for your view of the fall and the condition of Adam before and after would oblige that view.

However, I have posted extensively that there is no "free will" for there are consequences to any choice.

Man does not now, nor, from being put out of Eden has ever, enjoyed "freedom of choice." Man can't even commit suicide unless Christ allows for He holds the keys of life and death.

There is and never was (except in Eden) "freedom of choice" and "free will."
Adam was intellectually far more acute than modern man, for he choose the name of creation's elements. Adam could talk and walk with God in more intimate fashion than even the angels. Adam had knowledge and understanding of God and the world (for he was to care for the creation) above any - even the serpent. The Scriptures do not say the serpent had greater intellectual capacity than Adam, nor does the Scriptures state that Adam was deceived into eating what was forbidden.


When Adam chose Eve over God, the relationship to God changed, and it was never the same from that point, nor ever again (until the new body is given), will be the same. God barred man from Eden. God barred man from the intimate fellowship once enjoyed. Man is completely fallen and cannot "freely choose" or "freely will" anything other than the wages of sin.

I will give one example of the change. In Eden, Adam and Eve had no concept of shame.

There isn't a living soul that has or will ever live that doesn't know and experienced shame and the desire to cover up.

 

[Amy.G]

No one has to sin.

Then why has no one ever succeeded in perfect sinlessness?

 

[agedman]

Sin Nature?!!! Your argument does not hold water. If Adam had freewill, then he would not have eaten based on your assumption.

Adam did not sin because of "temptation" but because he chose the love of Eve over the love of God. I thought you knew this.

Adam wasn't tricked, wasn't tempted, wasn't in anyway unknowingly schemed into accepting the fruit.

Unlike every other humankind that has ever lived, the condition of Adam in Eden was NOT the same as man. He didn't even look the same!!! He didn't have a belly button!

 

[agedman]

The point is that if Adam was elected before the foundation of the world then he had to sin to become an elect and that means he had no free will to choose not to sin.

Why do you think Adam was ever saved?

Hebrews teaches, "it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I have seen no Scripture that ever states that Adam repented and that Adam was saved.

 

[freeatlast]

Adam did not sin because of "temptation" but because he chose the love of Eve over the love of God. I thought you knew this.

Adam wasn't tricked, wasn't tempted, wasn't in anyway unknowingly schemed into accepting the fruit.

Unlike every other humankind that has ever lived, the condition of Adam in Eden was NOT the same as man. He didn't even look the same!!! He didn't have a belly button!

Belly button, not but he must have had a fantastic scar from where the rib was removed.
As to Adam not being tempted that is false. He was tempted and he acted on the temptation. It may very well have been the temptation of choosing his wife over God, but he was tempted. Adam exercised free will and we do the same. No one ever has to sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Why do you think Adam was ever saved?

Hebrews teaches, "it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

I have seen no Scripture that ever states that Adam repented and that Adam was saved.

Are you saying Adam did not need a Savior or that Adam is not with the Lord today?

 

[agedman]

It is the same reason as anyone else. I choose to sin from time to time. My love for the Lord in those times is not what it should be, but it is still a free will choice. Do you believe this scripture.
I cor 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

Take out the word "choose" and replace it with "submit" and also replace "but it is a free will choice" with "and the consequences are hurtful to myself and others" your post is most accurate!!!!

Folks it is always a matter of submission. One is either submitted to Christ or submitted to the things of the flesh. The consequences are always the result of what follows submission.

 

[freeatlast]

Take out the word "choose" and replace it with "submit" and also replace "but it is a free will choice" with "and the consequences are hurtful to myself and others" your post is most accurate!!!!

Folks it is always a matter of submission. One is either submitted to Christ or submitted to the things of the flesh. The consequences are always the result of what follows submission.

No it was accurate as it was posted.

It is the same reason as anyone else. I choose to sin from time to time. My love for the Lord in those times is not what it should be, but it is still a free will choice. Do you believe this scripture.
I cor 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

 

[agedman]

As to Adam not being tempted that is false. He was tempted and he acted on the temptation. It may very well have been the temptation of choosing his wife over God, but he was tempted. Adam exercised free will and we do the same. No one ever has to sin.

No, it is not false.

The Scriptures indicate that the serpent never spoke or tempted Adam, but he took and ate. Eve was deceived (tricked) into eating, but not Adam

Adam had full knowledge of all the trees and their fruit. He had full choice and full freedom. He was not tempted.

James says that, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

But there was NO lust in Eden. No shame.

After the fall - most definitely!


That is why sin is so very sinful - it took freedom forever from all mankind.

This is shown in Christ saying, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

 

[freeatlast]

No, it is not false.

The Scriptures indicate that the serpent never spoke or tempted Adam, but he took and ate. Eve was deceived (tricked) into eating, but not Adam

Adam had full knowledge of all the trees and their fruit. He had full choice and full freedom. He was not tempted.

James says that, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."

But there was NO lust in Eden. No shame.

After the fall - most definitely!


That is why sin is so very sinful - it took freedom forever from all mankind.

This is shown in Christ saying, "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

Yes Adam was tempted. You did not answer my question.
Are you saying Adam did not need a Savior or that Adam is not with the Lord today?

 

[agedman]

Are you saying Adam did not need a Savior or that Adam is not with the Lord today?

Certainly Adam needed a savior after Eden.

Is there ever any scriptures that even suggest Adam looked forward to the promise of restoration? No.

Remember, his reaction? Shame, blame, excuse...

Not once did he even come close to saying to the one whom he once walked so intimately in friendship, "God, I am so very sorry."

He had ample opportunity. He (until forcefully removed and barred from Eden) still had direct communication that no man has enjoyed other than Christ. Any scriptures about Adam cast him in the light as sin filled and having caused all humankind to be in that same condition.

 

[agedman]

Yes Adam was tempted. You did not answer my question.
Are you saying Adam did not need a Savior or that Adam is not with the Lord today?

Show me by Scripture that temptation existed prior to the fall.

Show me by Scripture Adam was "tempted" when he had no understanding or even new shame.

Adam could not be tempted, he did not know "lust" and did not know "shame."