I can, being flat out prone on your face.
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Do We Bow Down Enough in Church?
- Thread starter Mark Corbett
- Start date
I can, being flat out prone on your face.
Well it is also a practice in the Bible.
Ok? not sure why you brought Catholics into it. It appeared to be an attempt to discredit it.
Mark Corbett
Active Member
Obviously I have no idea whether or not the people in the photo laying down have the right attitude in their hearts.
Sadly, any good practice can be done in an empty way that makes God hate it:
Amos 5:21 "I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me. 22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.
Hank, I wonder if perhaps you have experienced "empty" examples of kneeling and bowing? You aren't against these things now and still sometimes kneel, but you also remember the negative examples and perhaps, in a small way, you hate those activities. Not the activities themselves, but the memory of them being done without true spiritual life. This is just a guess.
Not to discredit the practice but to show that even heretics can do it.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
HankD
In the sleeping position?
Yes, I have had leadership roles in the church and as anyone who has had these positions we have to deal with false piety.
I don't "hate" the people who have this kind of piety nor do I cast them aside - but it takes wisdom to help get them back to true biblical humility.
Personally I have been guilty and the older I grow the more I can look back and see my attempts at this kind of pride in my own life.
Here is the scripture I shared with rev :
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
HankD
I've attended Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist services. One of the bones they have to pick with us is "you Americans sit when you pray." The EC-Bs either kneel or stand when praying.
I put the lack of kneeling in American churches down to a deep antipathy bordering on a severe allergic reaction to any whiff of popery.
I put the lack of kneeling in American churches down to a deep antipathy bordering on a severe allergic reaction to any whiff of popery.
Mark Corbett
Active Member
It's hard to say what the reasons are for lack of kneeling and bowing down for worship in most American churches. I suspect there are a number of factors:
1. There is probably something to the reason you mention, a reaction against past false shows of religion.
2. The current use of pews or closely spaced chairs makes it difficult.
3. Our churches have many older, godly members who physically would find bowing or kneeling very difficult if not impossible. If we do have a time where bowing or kneeling is encouraged, we need to remember to do so in a way which does not dishonor those who can't join in these physical acts.
And on the more negative side some of these factors may influence us:
4. We are just not used to it. "We've never done it like that" can be a strong force, even when not explicitly stated.
5. We like being comfortable.
6. Our flesh resists humble submission. Bowing is not a part of our culture.
7. The devil opposes any Biblical practice which would help people worship God and show and feel their submission to Him. The devil can do this by tempting people to false outward expressions of religion, or by tempting them not to engage in true expressions of devotion. Either strategy gets the job done.
So? I don't get it. Again it still looks like you are trying to discredit it if you are comparing it to heretics.
My point is that people putting themselves prostrate or kneeling in prayer guarantees nothing on the part of the practitioner's spirituality.
For the second time (#27 was the first - "Not to discredit the practice but to show that even heretics can do it") let me repeat
This post is not to discredit the practice but to show that even the ungodly can do it.
Even the act of prayer itself is no guarantee of the rebirth.
HankD
But it contradicts his narrative so you have to have posted it as a personal attack against him to discredit the practice and by discrediting the practice, discrediting him.
Well, this did not even enter my mind so I am sorry for not making that part clear.But it contradicts his narrative so you have to have posted it as a personal attack against him to discredit the practice and by discrediting the practice, discrediting him.
HankD
I agree there is some element of a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox liturgical worship brought to mind when asked to kneel. I'm sure we've all seen the kneeling benches in the pews at Catholic churches along with the rote practice of stand, kneel, say this prayer with me, sit, stand, kneel, repeat this prayer after me, etc.
Mark Corbett
Active Member
Yes, being asked to kneel in a service may remind us of traditions where that is more common.
But the important question is not "Is this something Catholics do?", but rather, "Based on God's Word, would this be something good for us to do?"
Also, it doesn't have to be done in a way where the pastor says "All kneel" or something like that. It could be more like having times and places where people feel free to kneel and understand the Biblical value in doing so.
Mark Corbett
Active Member
A verse to consider . . .
Felipe Rios
Member
I agree with you. Most of us Baptists are so afraid of hypocrisy that we strive away from things like clapping in church, bowing down, lifting out hands, etc. It is sad but it true!
I suppose if you go to church to be entertained clapping is appropriate.
I have never been in a church where bowing of the head in prayer is not practiced.
A sadly misunderstood part of the bible. When we read in
1 Timothy 2:8 "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting" first of all it is talking about prayer. Second it is a reference to Exodus 17 when God told Moses to stand on the hill and hold his hands in the air and as long as he did so Israel would prevail in the battle. This was to insure the people knew the victory was not due to their military skills but to God's grace.
When his arms got tired and he could no longer hold them up Aaron and Hur stepped in and held Moses' arms up and Israel prevailed in the battle.
The reference is to help others, not to indicate some self-serving "look at me! Look how spiritual I am" pride on the part of the person.