timtofly
Well-Known Member
Free will to unsave themselves? Liberty in Christ is not free will, still wrong definition. Why would anyone in their right mind, change their mind about any aspect of being in Christ?
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Do We Have Free Will 2
- Thread starter Sai
- Start date
timtofly
Well-Known Member
We are not talking about sin being equal to free will.
Is salvation all about someone being in their "right mind?"
Does this mean that you can freely lose your salvation at any point since free will saved you?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
sin = slave of sin according to scripture.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Why would any who love sin and hate righteousness choose what they assume is Christ?
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Is the knowledge of good and evil, and the death of sin placed on Adam's descendants all about someone being in their "wrong mind"?
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Did you loose the ability to make a choice between good and evil? Free will does not save. Why do people keep claiming free will saves? My free will claims every single soul in the United states all change their minds and trust fully on the Grace of God? Why stop there. My free will claims every single soul in the world just now turned to Jesus Christ. If it were that simple, then all just got saved in Christ. My free will did not even change me. It only let me change when God asked if I was willing. I said, Yes. God saved me by His Atonement. My sinful will and nature did not want God. The ability to freely choose is free will. It was not stopped by my sinful will, nor the Will of God. In fact God encourages us with the sealing of the Holy Spirit in every person.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Because Sovereign God sealed them with the Holy Spirit at conception.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Where does it say this? We are only sealed by the Spirit AFTER the new birth.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
We all chose evil:
" without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." ( Romans 1:31-32 ).
" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 ).
" What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." ( Romans 3:9-12 ).
Since we as men take pleasure in those that sin, love darkness rather than light, and there is none that are righteous, would you say that we as men have abrogated or given away any semblance of a choice, when we have already chosen evil?
Before the flood men were this:
" And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually." ( Genesis 6:5 )
What has changed with regard to the heart of us as men since then?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Every person?
Or the believer, here:
" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ." ( Ephesians 1:1-2 ).
" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:13-14 ).
You said "any one in their right mind" would never turn their back on Christ. This infers that Christians, not being of "right" mind (whatever that is) can and will choose to reject Christ, just as they (in your argument) chose Christ.
The Nazarene Church, Wesleyan Church and many Mennonite Churches all teach humans choosing Christ and also being able to unchoose Christ via any sin for which there is no repentance. Roman Catholics teach purgatory for unrepentant sins that have not been bought and paid for by the performance of sacraments. Do you follow this same logic.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
No it was a question in response to perseverance of saints and never able to sin. Are you saying that Reformed theology is right with that logic?
The issue is the state of one's will, not if we sin or not. If the logic of Reformed theology means sinless perfection, it is wrong. Can some one claim Reformed theology and have a will that can only sin? I would say it happens more than most want to admit. Believing a doctrine or theology does not make one born again in Christ. There are moral athiest who totally reject God and know more about the Bible and live decent lives. I am not going to make a claim on any one's individual relationship with God, nor make a blanket statement that some denominations have a higher percentage of believers than another. I am not even on purpose judging one's personal relationship with God based on their theology. I am not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who knows and works in people's hearts and minds.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
I think that the verse is misunderstood and not interpreted correctly. It is one of the few verses about being sealed. Is belief the point where one who is sealed can be at a place to choose between life in Christ or death? What is the earnest?
Earnest :
a thing intended or regarded as a sign or promise of what is to come.
The seal is a continuous process until full redemption. Did one believe because they were sealed? Or was one sealed because they believed? Reformed theology denies the as is reading, because belief would be an act of self, not God. Being sealed was the result of belief.
Nor do they accept the point that one can believe while being sealed. They cannot accept a person is sealed from conception. One may ask, "Why was being sealed mentioned as last?"
It was not. The point was hearing came first. The point was on the need to hear first. Let us take it step by step the other direction. Sealed at conception, including the work of the Holy Spirit till the point of belief. Then you hear a person speak the Gospel, at that point you trusted God, born again. Being born again does not come first. So the point of belief was not being sealed. The point of belief came because one was already sealed. Now being born again is just the earnest of the fact of being sealed since conception. It comes with the full power of the Holy Spirit now. It will turn death into just a point of change, and not punishment. Then soon we will have our robe of white, the glorified body, a full and complete son of God.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Nothing has changed. I would argue that all humanity from Day 6 till the last human are sealed at conception. The only difference is we know God came to earth as our Atonement. Well, we have little excuse to not know. Was it more evident in the OT? David in the Psalms speaks of what happens in the womb. Did the whole world know? God claims no human is without excuse.
Especially those sons of God before the Flood. They were all considered in a fallen state of sin. Yet they had direct access to God Himself. They had a glorified body, yet they did not glorify God. Enoch the 7th generation from fallen Adam, born in sin, was more righteous than the sons of God themselves. It pleased God so much, Enoch will never die. So no difference. There may never be another Enoch. John the beloved?
Perhaps the 144K Jewish male virgins will come close. Makes me wonder how old they will even be. Perhaps all ages? Who knows?
37818
Well-Known Member
We are self willed. At issue is our will versus God's will. What is called "free will" has everything to do with each of us haveing our own wills. But we are not really free.
Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . ."
timtofly
Well-Known Member
The word "yield" is the point of free will. Reformed theology claims it is impossible to yield to God, because of total depravity. This verse just claims you can freely choose who you yield to. Where does this verse say God does the yielding for you? Where does this verse say it is impossible to yield to obedience unto righteousness?
Sai
Well-Known Member
Nope it’s worse than that. We are born dead spiritually. The human spirit is like a corpse in the body. It can however respond to Satan and to the world, but it is dead to God and cannot respond to God in the form of seeking and loving God.