-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
Hmmm.So the moment that Christ died on the Cross everyone was Saved?[/QB]
Rom 9:13 says that God hated Esau. I seem to recall that Yahweh said "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Rom 9:15
If He died for all then He partly died in vain, intentionally.
Originally posted by ONENESS:
No.So the moment that Christ died on the Cross everyone was Saved?
A) I don't have a question about it. The Bible is clear.Originally posted by ONENESS:
but if you have a question concerning the Oneness of God and what I believe on THAT issue than please address it in the appropriate thread.
B) Given that you brought it up in this thread, this is the appropriate thread.
You are the one that suggested I keep it where it started.
Yes. You started it anew here.
Then address the issue and stop running away.What does that have to do with anything. I could say what ever I wanted here as well.
If you're a Christian, then you need the body of Christ to keep you accountable.Who do i need to hold me accountable?
Nothing personal? How does calling me names help you state your case?This is nothing personal. Its just a VERY SIMPLErequest. If you cant simply do what I am asking in my thread than you can help your self "Back Button" and see your way out of here.
Based on?You are the one thats acting like a child.
For the umpteenth time, if you wanted to discuss it somewhere else, then why did you bring it up here.I just asked you if you want to debate the oneness of God to please take it somewhere else.
You mean you have a history of this kind of behavior? I don't know if I'd brag about that if I were you.Its not a big deal... Really, its not. No one else has ever had a problem with it.
If ad hominom attacks aren't personal, then what in the world is? An ad hominom atack by it's very nature is personal.So if you want to act like a child, I dont see why you would mind being treated like one. This is not a personal attack. So there goes your rebuttle.
Actually, this will be my last response to you. It had been so long since I last tried to talk to you that I forgot why I gave up."If you dont like the way things are being done in this thread excuse yourself. It will save both of us the trouble.
It's obvious that you aren't ready to be with the adults yet. Call me when you are.
Yes, and I rebutted it sucessfully, I might add.Yea I brought up an intire chapter, you rebutted it so what. I moved on with more scripture to show you that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ.
You moved on with more scripture and I sucessfully rebutted that, too.
I'm assuming that was what set off your temper tantrum.
Then the title of this thread was misleading.Now if you want to refute the fact that The Spirit of Chirst and The HOly Spirit are not the Same Spirit that fits the subject "ONENESS OF GOD VS. THE TRINTIY" better than it does "Do we need the Holy Ghost to be saved".
Whatever you chose to call the thread doesn't negate that you tried to abuse scripture to support modalist heresy.
1. Baptistboard's TOS forbid addressing a thread to a specific individual.The question was asked to DHK. He was very capable of getting the Job done. And he got it done.
2. You, yourself said that these threads were open for anyone to comment.
3. I don't always agree with DHK, but in this case, I agree that he thrashed you pretty soundly.
Thank you, but I would rather discuss it with my dog than to try to have a conversation with you.Now if you wish to discuss wether the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit and The HOly Ghost are the same we can address that at "Oneness Vs. The Trinity.
[ November 25, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
Lorelei:
John's baptism was not valid because it had been supercede by the baptism of Christ. Mat. 28:18-20.
The text of Acts 19:1-6 also point out that one cannot be taught and believe wrong and be right before God.
The 120 did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The text makes it clear it was the 12.Luke 24:46-50, Acts 1:4,5;2:1-4,7,14.
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit for the purpose of proving that gentiles were to receive the gospel as well as Jews. See Acts 11:15-18;10:11-48.
The inspired Peter said baptism was for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, I Pet. 3:21.
John's baptism was not valid because it had been supercede by the baptism of Christ. Mat. 28:18-20.
The text of Acts 19:1-6 also point out that one cannot be taught and believe wrong and be right before God.
The 120 did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The text makes it clear it was the 12.Luke 24:46-50, Acts 1:4,5;2:1-4,7,14.
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit for the purpose of proving that gentiles were to receive the gospel as well as Jews. See Acts 11:15-18;10:11-48.
The inspired Peter said baptism was for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, I Pet. 3:21.
ONENESS posted:Originally posted by Frank:
Lorelei:
John's baptism was not valid because it had been supercede by the baptism of Christ. Mat. 28:18-20.
The text of Acts 19:1-6 also point out that one cannot be taught and believe wrong and be right before God.
The 120 did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The text makes it clear it was the 12.Luke 24:46-50, Acts 1:4,5;2:1-4,7,14.
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit for the purpose of proving that gentiles were to receive the gospel as well as Jews. See Acts 11:15-18;10:11-48.
The inspired Peter said baptism was for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, I Pet. 3:21.
This was Oneness's original question? Actually I think she misquoted me. Without looking back at the thread I believe I said that one doesn't need the baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. There is a big difference between that and what Oneness said."DHK mentioned on a diffrent topic that The Book of Romans does not mention that we need the Holy Ghost to go to heaven. Does it? Does it have to mention it at all?
So you tell me DHK... Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?"
However, Frank, my challenge to either one of you is to give a plain presentation of the plan of salvation without going outside of the Book of Romans. Can you do this. Or must you rely on some of your pet verses in Acts to uphold some of your unorthodox doctrines?
DHK
DHK:
I believe the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:27. The sum of it is truth. Psalms 119:160. The sum of the truth reveals the plan of salvation. Mk. 10:32,33, Luke 24:46-50, Mk. 14;24, Hebrews 9:22,Hebrews 10:19- 22, Rev.1:7, Eph. 5:26 Acts 22;16, John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Mat. 10:32, Mk. 16:16, Mk. 1;15, II Thes. 2;14,15, I Cor. 15:1-4, John 3:36.
Jesus said, all these things were essential for salvation. By the way, none of these are from the book of Romans.
Why do you exclude the rest of the New Testament? Are the other 26 books not good enough for you?
The first Gospel message was preached in Acts 2. Just go to the source to find the plan of salvation. It is all there. Just accept the simplicity of Christ. II Cor. 11:3. In Acts 2, you will find the death burial and resurrection of Christ. vs.23,24,27, 31. The hope it brings to man. vs.26-28. The message of salvation. vs, 37,38.Of course, you would not get to close to the book of Acts, especially 2:38-41. Tell me, does your Bible have a book of Acts and or James in it? Or, did the Holy Spirit tell you to remove them because Peter and James were wrong about salvation and you are right?
This is so much just blowing in the wind. Just let it take you any where you want to go.
I believe the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:27. The sum of it is truth. Psalms 119:160. The sum of the truth reveals the plan of salvation. Mk. 10:32,33, Luke 24:46-50, Mk. 14;24, Hebrews 9:22,Hebrews 10:19- 22, Rev.1:7, Eph. 5:26 Acts 22;16, John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Mat. 10:32, Mk. 16:16, Mk. 1;15, II Thes. 2;14,15, I Cor. 15:1-4, John 3:36.
Jesus said, all these things were essential for salvation. By the way, none of these are from the book of Romans.
Why do you exclude the rest of the New Testament? Are the other 26 books not good enough for you?
The first Gospel message was preached in Acts 2. Just go to the source to find the plan of salvation. It is all there. Just accept the simplicity of Christ. II Cor. 11:3. In Acts 2, you will find the death burial and resurrection of Christ. vs.23,24,27, 31. The hope it brings to man. vs.26-28. The message of salvation. vs, 37,38.Of course, you would not get to close to the book of Acts, especially 2:38-41. Tell me, does your Bible have a book of Acts and or James in it? Or, did the Holy Spirit tell you to remove them because Peter and James were wrong about salvation and you are right?
This is so much just blowing in the wind. Just let it take you any where you want to go.
"However, Frank, my challenge to either one of you is to give a plain presentation of the plan of salvation without going outside of the Book of Romans. Can you do this. Or must you rely on some of your pet verses in Acts to uphold some of your unorthodox doctrines?"Originally posted by Frank:
I believe the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:27. The sum of it is truth. Psalms 119:160. The sum of the truth reveals the plan of salvation. Mk. 10:32,33, Luke 24:46-50, Mk. 14;24, Hebrews 9:22,Hebrews 10:19- 22, Rev.1:7, Eph. 5:26 Acts 22;16, John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Mat. 10:32, Mk. 16:16, Mk. 1;15, II Thes. 2;14,15, I Cor. 15:1-4, John 3:36.
Jesus said, all these things were essential for salvation. By the way, none of these are from the book of Romans.
In other words Frank, your answer is NO, you cannot show the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans, a book that deals entirely with salvation. You need supporting verses from the Book of Acts especialy to support your heresies. You have just proven my point.
DHK
[ November 25, 2002, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
DHK:
I just provided the evidence for the plan of salvation. These scriptures provide the answer to the divine question, " What must I do to be saved?" Acts 2:37;9:6;16:30. The rational mind makes only those conclusions as are warranted by the totality of the evidence. You,sir, just as you have at other times posting about this subject, have along with this latest challenge, proven that you are irrational.
I answered your challenge harmoniously from the words of Christ, the gospel accounts, and the book of Acts. The presentation was both simple and thorough. You just do not like the answer.
Of course, I understand you have difficulties in math and english. For you, it is grace alone and faith alone. However, when something is alone,it is all by itself. Grace alone and faith alone are not alone but equal two. However, other times, it is the blood alone and Christ alone. Other times, it also includes repentance and confession. I believe that makes six. This must be that new math! Each and every one of these elements is a different word with a different meaning. Logic dictates that things that are different are not the same. The same is true for the english and greek language, which is the original language of the new testament.
Furthermore, and is a coordinating conjunction that connects two in likeness. See Mk. 16:16. But contrasts two or more things or phrases. see Mark 16:16. It is most difficult to prove anything to someone who changes the rules of english and math. However, such is the nature of irrational thought.
I cannot help the fact you refuse to search the Bible to see if these things are so! Acts 17:11, II Tim. 2:15; 4:1-4.
In other threads, I have posted at least ten elements essential to salvation, ALL DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE. This does not help, as you ignore grammar, word meanings and are lacking in math skills. If this does not work, you array scripture against scripture. Again, this approach to knowing the truth is both irrrational and illogical.
I challenge you to learn addition, word meanings, the rules of grammar, and most importantly the new testament and the rules of interpretation. if you know these things, then use them!
I just provided the evidence for the plan of salvation. These scriptures provide the answer to the divine question, " What must I do to be saved?" Acts 2:37;9:6;16:30. The rational mind makes only those conclusions as are warranted by the totality of the evidence. You,sir, just as you have at other times posting about this subject, have along with this latest challenge, proven that you are irrational.
I answered your challenge harmoniously from the words of Christ, the gospel accounts, and the book of Acts. The presentation was both simple and thorough. You just do not like the answer.
Of course, I understand you have difficulties in math and english. For you, it is grace alone and faith alone. However, when something is alone,it is all by itself. Grace alone and faith alone are not alone but equal two. However, other times, it is the blood alone and Christ alone. Other times, it also includes repentance and confession. I believe that makes six. This must be that new math! Each and every one of these elements is a different word with a different meaning. Logic dictates that things that are different are not the same. The same is true for the english and greek language, which is the original language of the new testament.
Furthermore, and is a coordinating conjunction that connects two in likeness. See Mk. 16:16. But contrasts two or more things or phrases. see Mark 16:16. It is most difficult to prove anything to someone who changes the rules of english and math. However, such is the nature of irrational thought.
I cannot help the fact you refuse to search the Bible to see if these things are so! Acts 17:11, II Tim. 2:15; 4:1-4.
In other threads, I have posted at least ten elements essential to salvation, ALL DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE BIBLE. This does not help, as you ignore grammar, word meanings and are lacking in math skills. If this does not work, you array scripture against scripture. Again, this approach to knowing the truth is both irrrational and illogical.
I challenge you to learn addition, word meanings, the rules of grammar, and most importantly the new testament and the rules of interpretation. if you know these things, then use them!
So if you can't answer a question, you answer with mean spirited innuendo. Is that right?
I will ask again:
DHK
I will ask again:
Until you can show me the plan of salvation out of Romans, Frank, I will assume you do not know what the plan of salvation is."However, Frank, my challenge to either one of you is to give a plain presentation of the plan of salvation without going outside of the Book of Romans. Can you do this. Or must you rely on some of your pet verses in Acts to uphold some of your unorthodox doctrines?"
In other words Frank, your answer is NO, you cannot show the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans, a book that deals entirely with salvation. You need supporting verses from the Book of Acts especialy to support your heresies. You have just proven my point.
DHK
Originally posted by Frank:
The 120 did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The question was not how many, the question was when were they baptized "in the name of Jesus"?
Again, the question was not for what purpose, it was how was that possible since they had not yet been baptized?Originally posted by Frank:
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit for the purpose of proving that gentiles were to receive the gospel as well as Jews.
~Lorelei
Thanks for clearing that up! The thread was started because of a comment you made, but they didn't show us what comment they were referring to. Knowing what you believe, I was really confused at what they were trying to say you said, because I know you wouldn't say what they said you had said. But now I know what you did say and you are right, there is a big difference in what you did say and what they say you said!Originally posted by DHK:
Without looking back at the thread I believe I said that one doesn't need the baptism of the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. There is a big difference between that and what Oneness said.
The quote box is used so often when it isn't necessary and then forgotten when it should be used.
~Lorelei
Note for All:
On the "Baptism for Baptists Thread" the last post was this:
Originally posted by ONENESS:
DHK
On the "Baptism for Baptists Thread" the last post was this:
Originally posted by ONENESS:
Answer by DHKIf you would like I start a subject on (Not about tongues)the question "Do we need the Holy Ghost to go to heaven"
This was what was originally said, and from where ONENESS 'quoted' from.Romans 8:10-11
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." The Scripture is plain on this teaching. Of course one needs the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. But it is also plain that the Holy Spirit does not come through either baptism or speaking in tongues. It comes when one confess Christ as Lord and believes that God has raised Christ from the dead. That is when one is saved, and that is when Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer.
DHK
DHK
"However, Frank, my challenge to either one of you is to give a plain presentation of the plan of salvation without going outside of the Book of Romans. Can you do this. Or must you rely on some of your pet verses in Acts to uphold some of your unorthodox doctrines?"Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frank:
I believe the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:27. The sum of it is truth. Psalms 119:160. The sum of the truth reveals the plan of salvation. Mk. 10:32,33, Luke 24:46-50, Mk. 14;24, Hebrews 9:22,Hebrews 10:19- 22, Rev.1:7, Eph. 5:26 Acts 22;16, John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Mat. 10:32, Mk. 16:16, Mk. 1;15, II Thes. 2;14,15, I Cor. 15:1-4, John 3:36.
Jesus said, all these things were essential for salvation. By the way, none of these are from the book of Romans.
In other words Frank, your answer is NO, you cannot show the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans, a book that deals entirely with salvation. You need supporting verses from the Book of Acts especialy to support your heresies. You have just proven my point.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]Ok lets keep it simple.
DHK do you believe that you must repent to go to heaven?
Originally posted by ONENESS:
Another evasive answer, ONENESS. I'll accept that as: "No, I can't show you through the Book of Romans the plan of salvation."Ok lets keep it simple.
DHK do you believe that you must repent to go to heaven?
DHK
I tried too. You did not agree. Ok I cant show you yet. But trust me sonner or later I want have to show you. You will be able to see it your self.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Another evasive answer, ONENESS. I'll accept that as: "No, I can't show you through the Book of Romans the plan of salvation."Ok lets keep it simple.
DHK do you believe that you must repent to go to heaven?
DHK</font>
Again. Do we need to repent to be saved?
Again this is as simple as I can get with you. Its a yes or No answer. Please supply me with a Yes or a No.
God bless
[ November 26, 2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
Originally posted by ONENESS:
Of course one needs to repent to be saved. But perhaps your definition of repentance is different than the Biblical definition of repentance. Furthermore, repentance is included in the act of faith. When one truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he, at the same time is repenting of his old way of Life. Obviously if he is calling upon the name of the LORD, implicit in that statement alone he is making Christ Lord of his life. That is repentance. A change from your old way of life, and a change to a new way of life. Repentance from a sinful way of life, and repentance unto Christ. All of that is accomplished by faith.Again. Do we need to repent to be saved?
Again this is as simple as I can get with you. Its a yes or No answer. Please supply me with a Yes or a No.
DHK
DHKOriginally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Of course one needs to repent to be saved. But perhaps your definition of repentance is different than the Biblical definition of repentance. Furthermore, repentance is included in the act of faith. When one truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he, at the same time is repenting of his old way of Life. Obviously if he is calling upon the name of the LORD, implicit in that statement alone he is making Christ Lord of his life. That is repentance. A change from your old way of life, and a change to a new way of life. Repentance from a sinful way of life, and repentance unto Christ. All of that is accomplished by faith.Again. Do we need to repent to be saved?
Again this is as simple as I can get with you. Its a yes or No answer. Please supply me with a Yes or a No.
DHK</font>
DHK Repentance is a totally seperate experience than believing. Just b/c one calls on the Name of the Lord does not mean one has repented.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:
Of course one needs to repent to be saved. But perhaps your definition of repentance is different than the Biblical definition of repentance. Furthermore, repentance is included in the act of faith. When one truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he, at the same time is repenting of his old way of Life. Obviously if he is calling upon the name of the LORD, implicit in that statement alone he is making Christ Lord of his life. That is repentance. A change from your old way of life, and a change to a new way of life. Repentance from a sinful way of life, and repentance unto Christ. All of that is accomplished by faith.Again. Do we need to repent to be saved?
Again this is as simple as I can get with you. Its a yes or No answer. Please supply me with a Yes or a No.
DHK</font>
And I agree with you here.A change from your old way of life, and a change to a new way of life. Repentance from a sinful way of life, and repentance unto Christ. All of that is accomplished by faith.
And so is baptism in Jesus Name.Furthermore, repentance is included in the act of faith.
Again this was not a letter written to sinners. The people at Rome Knew what it truely meant to believe.
You cannot show me anywhere in the Book of Romans where it says we must repent. Repentance is indeed a part of our salvation.When one truly believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he, at the same time is repenting of his old way of Life.
Did you know that repenting is NO where in the Definition of Believing?
4100 pisteuo {pist-yoo'-o}
from 4102; TDNT - 6:174,849; v
AV - believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1,
be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1,
be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1; 248
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place
confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man
is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and
law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in
obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual
faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Just b/c someone believes In Jesus and Just b/c someone calls upon him does not mean that they repented.
So now you cant even show me full bible salvation with the Book of Romans alone b/c no where does it say that we must repent.
Now for the part that I agree with you on:
We dont believe b/c we Repent, We repent b/c we believe. Repentance is a seperate Act of Faith based on believing.
Now if you were to tell me to believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and that I would be saved then I would know what "to believe" really means.
But if you were to show someone that who has never known Christ he might have a totally diffrent understanding than we do.
That is why we then go on to show them "Using the REST OF THE BIBLE what it means to believe.
The Bible teaches in John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
There is a certain way that we must believe on him. And we do that according to Scripture.
God bless
[ November 26, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />And so is baptism in Jesus Name.Furthermore, repentance is included in the act of faith.
You cannot show me anywhere in the Book of Romans where it says we must repent.
So now you cant even show me full bible salvation with the Book of Romans alone b/c no where does it say that we must repent.
</font>
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to REPENTANCE?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
--It is only the goodness of God that leads you to repentance; that will lead you to change your mind about your sinful way of life and turn you to God. But you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering. Because of the hardness of your heart your treasure will be the wrath of God in the day of judgement. As long as you spurn the gospel, faith in his sacrificial blood, and faith alone, you keep adding to that wrath. "God is angry with the wicked every day." You already have "the revelation of the righteous judgement of God." You refuse his revelation to repent of your wickedness in including baptism as a part of your salvation. Repent of this wickedness. Salvation is by grace alone. Accept it by faith alone. God provided it by His grace. It was by grace He died on the cross. It was His grace He loved you and died for you. Accept this sacrifice by faith, lest you treasure up for yourself His wrath in the day of wrath.
Repentance is taught in Romans.
DHK